< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 46 OF 66 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Mar-02-11 | | seeminor: My above comment was not intened to be a criticism, as indeed he was getting on a bit. In regards to comments made about his 'chequered' WC match record, i had heard it said before that he did badly initially.After some intense preparations based on what his opponent offered, he would come back storming in the return match! |
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Mar-30-11
 | | Penguincw: Quote of the Day:
< "Everything is in a state of flux, and this includes the world of chess." > |
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Apr-23-11
 | | keypusher: <I Play the Fred>
<<keypusher>, why the hostility/apathy for Bronstein?> I think he got bitter and wrote a lot of crap in his old age. You can do a search for discussions of Soltis' Treachery in Zurich to see what I have to say about that. <To corroborate this, on another page here someone posted an analysis by Botvinnik, of a Bronstein game, in which Botvinnik referred to Bronstein only as "Br".> This is silly. Botvinnik kept a notebook of Bronstein's games while he was preparing for the 1951 championship match. He abbreviated Bronstein's name in the notebook. No insult or antipathy was signaled thereby. |
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Apr-24-11 | | BobCrisp: Soltis: <Two of Botvinnik's four uncles and an aunt left for America before WW1, but his parents remained and lived in relative luxury until Botvinnik's father left the family for a noblewoman.> So there could be a whole tribe of <Botvinnistas> running around America. Sounds like a research project: http://www.infoukes.com/genealogy/p... |
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Apr-24-11 | | drnooo: Does anybody here know the rumors, details, whatever, of Botvinniks supposed intervention on the behalf of Keres to not have ole Paul shipped off to more wintry climes. Or was that just kind of a toss of the KGBs coin, their deciding aww what the hell, he's just a goddam chess player even though we don't trust the bastard. Or is the whole mess just now lost totally to conjecture? |
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Apr-24-11 | | drnooo: What seems clear is that Paul did try to escap to the west during the war, failed, and that was that. For me, the failure forever changing chess history. An unencumbered Keres, flying his jolly roger from the safety of some US harbor, would have shown Bot, and the whole bunch just how he could really play with a full sail under him. |
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Apr-24-11 | | drnooo: Plus the 48 championship really was something of a joke. Quite of few of those boys playing with marked cards.
Not even the top players there, Fine should have been sitting in Euwes seat, Keres playing under god only knows what kind of pressure not to win: far as Im concerned the only pristine result is Reshevkys: we know he was playing his guts out and was not equal to the task.
For me that was the beginning of Chess Noir, when the literal threat of death fell across the board, the black squares far darker than with just the pain on them: somebody should write a book on that Playing for you Life
Later Korchnoi, I don't see how he did as well as he did with his family hostage in that match with Karpov, though that perhaps is another story, since not sure if he ever complained about its affecting his play. |
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Apr-24-11 | | BobCrisp: <What seems clear is that Paul did try to escap to the west during the war, failed, and that was that.> Did he? Wouldn't it have meant abandoning his family back in Estonia? There's also the question of whether <Keres> considered following the example of others at the <Buenos Aires Olympiad> by remaining in Argentina after the outbreak of WW2. Although <Estonia> wouldn't be occupied by the Soviets until June 1940, the threat was already apparent by September 1939: <Estonia had pursued a policy of neutrality, but it was of no consequence after the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany signed the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact on August 23, 1939. In the agreement, the two great powers agreed to divide up the countries situated between them (Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland) with Estonia falling in the Soviet "sphere of influence". After the invasion of Poland, the Orzel; incident took place when Polish submarine ORP Orzel; looked for shelter in Tallinn but escaped after the Soviet Union attacked Poland on September 17. Estonian's lack of will and/or inability to disarm and intern the crew caused the Soviet Union to accuse Estonia of "helping them escape" and claim that Estonia was not neutral. On September 24, 1939, the Soviet Union threatened Estonia with war unless provided with military bases in the country –- an ultimatum with which the Estonian government complied.> According to <Keres>, he stayed 'for some time' in Argentina after the end of the Olympiad and even took part in a club tournament there. But by this account, at least, chess considerations were still his priority. <Before I had left for Buenos Aires, I had agreed in principle with Dr Euwe to play him a friendly match. Although it was officially a friendly match, the general opinion in the chess-world was that the winner would have the moral right of challenging the world champion, Alekhine. My prospects of bringing about such a match through the results of the <AVRO> tournament had not proved realisable. [...] I had to look around for other ways to arrive at this hoped-for match. Now, whilst I was in Buenos Aires, I received a telegram from Dr Euwe saying that all preparations for our friendly match had been made and that play was due to begin at the end of the year. I therefore hurried to return home and by the last days of December we were sitting opposite each other at the chess-board in Amsterdam.> |
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Apr-24-11 | | Pyke: <drnooo: Plus the 48 championship really was something of a joke. Quite of few of those boys playing with marked cards.> Any evidence you care to show? |
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Apr-28-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <drnooo>, <Pyke> Here are updated links to <Taylor Kingston's> research on the topic "Was Keres forced to take a dive in 1948, and if so, how much did Botvinnik know about it." <The Keres-Botvinnik Case: a survey of the evidence> Part one:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kb1.pdf
Part two:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kb2.pdf
<The Keres-Botvinnik Case revisited: a further survey of the evidence> http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt... |
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Apr-28-11
 | | FSR: <jfq> Thanks for the links to Kingston's very interesting articles! Somehow I wasn't aware of these. They're a much more thorough analysis of the evidence than Evans' commentary in Chess Life, which I was aware of. |
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Apr-28-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <FSR> well met here- considering that you are currently editing Wiki chess pages? I was told you were.
The reason I posted the links here today is that I noticed that the first two links were dead on the current <Mikhail Botvinnik> Wikipedia page. So I searched on Google and found those updated links. There's more from <Taylor Kingston> on this topic as well- An interview with <Yuri Averbakh>: Part one:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt...
Part two:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt...
I share your admiration for <Taylor Kingston> as a chess writer and historian. He's also a frequent contributor to <Edward Winter's> website, as you probably already know. |
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Apr-28-11
 | | FSR: <jfq> Thanks again. I will have to read the Averbakh interviews. I believe I have corrected all instances of the broken links you referred to in the Botvinnik article. Let me know if you see anything else amiss. |
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Apr-28-11 | | Pyke: Thank you for the links <Jessica>! |
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Apr-28-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: It's my pleasure gentlemen and HI PYKE! Nice to see you and <Mikhail> in the same photograph again. <FSR> that's magic man, thanks on behalf of all readers of Chess Wikipedia. There are tons of dead links on Wiki chess biographies at the moment. I read chess wiki entries every single day, so I'll start a log of dead links that I notice. If you trust me with your email, I could periodically send you log updates? It's up to you. I promise not to sell your email address to a Korean toothpaste company. I'm going to put my current email at the top of my Profile for easy access. Nice work again! |
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Apr-28-11
 | | FSR: <jfq> I just e-mailed you my e-mail address. Kindly don't share it with your defaming buddy AJ (who claims on his forum that I am a dead, disbarred alcoholic fraud; sweet guy). |
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May-18-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Mikhail Botvinnik> Live film footage of <Flohr> vs. <Botvinnik>: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs_6... |
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May-21-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Mikhail Botvinnik> Live film footage- part of a training game with coach/sparring partner <Viacheslav Ragozin>: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5S8... |
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May-21-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951> Live film footage of the World Championship Match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmU2... |
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May-21-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Live film footage of the USA vs. RUSSIA match held in Moscow, 1946. Included are <Mikhail Botvinnik>, <Vassily Smslov>, <Samuel Reshevsky>, <Arnold Denker>, and <Arthur Dake>: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZrl... |
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May-25-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Mikhail Botvinnik> Correct pronunciation of his name-
Audio/visual file: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrjo... |
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Jun-05-11
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Botvinnik-Petrosian> World Championship Match
Moscow 1963
Live film footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeV_... |
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Jun-26-11 | | bronkenstein: Reposting from Bronstein`s page :
...And speaking of Botvinnik`s intrigues , he surely knew how to use his political ties much earlier than 50s. There is detailed story (on Russian thou http://www.chesspro.ru/_events/2007...) explaining how he used his ˝protectors˝ to simply `improvise` another USSR championship (!) only few months after he finished only 6th (!) in the 12th USSR championship 1940.(http://www.chesspro.ru/_events/2007... , table is on the bottom , and there is few interesting photos meantime if you dont know Russian ). Needles to say , his fragile dreams of match with Alekhine crumbled to dust in such situation. The artificial USSR championship , called ˝The absolute˝ (as you might recall from the history books) to justify and distinguish it from the ˝normal˝ one in which Bondarevsky ( later on the Spassky`s second, man without whom Boris might never become the WC) and Lilienthal shared USSR champ title only few months prior to that. Just for the flavor , I will try to translate first few lines of this mammoth text : <˝Operation Absolute Championship˝After 12th championship Botvinnik lived in shock for 2 months , and he had good reason : all his hopes for Match against Alekhine suddenly vanished! OFC , he could try to return the title in a year on the next championship , but he couldn`t wait that long. and who guaranteed that he will succeed ? His position seemed hopeless , when he came up with desperate idea :˝In december I sent a letter to Snegirev (Chess Sportcommittee) , ironising the fact that the champion of the state , ie leader of USSR chess , will become the winner of the Bondarevsky-Liliental match (both of them are very talented players , but without signifucant chess achievements) , while Keres and me had such , and international BTW , achievements. Snegirov knew himself , that such match has no value concerning the Alekhine`s challenger; He understood my sign , and started working - as always , silently but with great energy. How he persuaded the higher authorities , I have no clue , he didn`t talk too much about that , but in 2 months it was declared that 6 winners of the 1940. championship ...> Why exactly 6? Remember , Botvinnik was, accidentally, 6th...just an innocent remark ;) < ...will play for the title of ˝absolute˝ champion . The meaning of the word ˝absolute˝ was clear: the ˝absolute˝ USSR champ would play the match against Alekhine.˝...> Keyword was ˝silent˝ , players had no idea what is happening until it was too late, and what is most important, nobody mentioned Botvinnik`s name in the process. He was diligently preparing , while : <... Lilienthal remembers that he , relaxed by the promises ( by Snegirov? ) that he and Bondarevsky will be , without any match , declared the USSR champions , went traveling to Syberia: ˝Suddenly i recieved a letter from the president of Sportcommittee , Snegov , to immediatelly return to Moscow , to take part in so called absolute championship. I was shocked. I was very angry : I simply did not expect anything like that. Needless to say , i went totally unprepared ˝...> Keywords shocked , suddenly + unprepared =) <...Young Bondarevsky told angrily to Keres one year later : ˝I was simply inexperienced...I should simply decline , and that`s it!˝...> BTW , decline in 1941 USSR ? keyword: inexperienced =) <...Keres , accepting the participation , had no idea how high the stakes were. Neither previous nor this championship did he consider connected in any way with the world championship , and he payed dearly for being so naive. If up to that moment Keres was seen as the Alekhine`s challenger (he was placed above Botvinnik twice in important tournaments)...> key one being AVRO , considered ac the ˝candidates˝ by many <... after the ˝Absolute˝ Botvinik had every right to say ˝It is clear now who should challenge Alekhine˝...> And it was only the first of the cruel games that destiny played with Paul...keywords, cruel games + naive =( PS You can compare the scoretables in first and second tournament to compare how successful ˝Operation Absolute˝ was for Botvinnik =) PPS My English is not perfect , and Russian even worse than that , so the translation is prolly far from accurate @ some points.
PPS this is only ˝collateral damage˝ from the discussion we had on Bronstein`s page , but I believe that it belongs here as well. |
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Jun-30-11 | | JoergWalter: two anecdotes:
<Spassky, who was introduced to Bohatirchuk in 1970 in Canada, was interviewed recently and has told that when he showed a postcard from Bohatirchuk to Botvinnik and said quite naively: 'What a pleasant person is this Bohatirchuk...', Botvinnik responded, "I would hang this man myself in the centre of the city!" No comments, nice indeed?>
<Bohatirchuk has mentioned in his autobiographic book (printed in Russian in San Francisco in 1978) that just after this game a head of Soviet chess organisation, well-known Minister of Justice Krylenko, approached him and said, "You will never beat Botvinnik again!" Indeed Bohatirchuk never had another chance to play Botvinnik. In particular he was not invited to the Moscow International the following year.> |
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Jun-30-11 | | bronkenstein: Bohatirchuk had 3:0 against MMB , with MMB managing to draw one . The last game ( prolly the mentioned victory ) was played in 1935 , and he never met Botvinnik @ the chessboard again =) |
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