< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 97 OF 100 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Sep-13-17 | | Petrosianic: <I also thought about Anderssen.> I wouldn't count Anderssen. Either he WAS an (Unofficial) World Champion, or his failure to win the title is due to the fact that there was no title to win. Take your choice. But that's not really a case of coming up short. |
|
Sep-13-17 | | ughaibu: So, clearly it's Zukertort. Or is it? If most of his 56 months were before the title existed, then surely the same considerations apply to him as to Anderssen. If I recall correctly, when asked this question, Kasparov stated "obviously Keres". I was surprised by that, I don't find it obvious at all. |
|
Sep-13-17
 | | keypusher: chessmetrics ratings...given the infrequency of top level events in the 19th century, months at the top isn't a very meaningful measure for masters active then, whether there was a world champ at a given time or not. Only after Hastings 1895 does it seem like there at least one strong tournament per year, but that didn't mean everyone played. Maroczy, Pillsbury, and Rubinstein's rankings benefit from Lasker's low level of activity after 1900. |
|
Sep-14-17 | | Petrosianic: <ughaibu: So, clearly it's Zukertort. Or is it? If most of his 56 months were before the title existed, then surely the same considerations apply to him as to Anderssen.> I have seen lists that named Zukertort as an Unofficial World Champion. And others that didn't. That's what comes of the list being unofficial. If we count only the years 1886-1888 (when he died), I would NOT consider him one of the greatest players not to be World Champion. Nothing he did in those years suggests that. If we count his whole career, I would consider him one of the best not to be champion, assuming that he wasn't. |
|
Sep-14-17 | | Howard: Keypusher and Sally Simpson, admittedly, made a valid point that I had not thought of---tournaments were a somewhat rare back in the days of Capablanca, Lasker, Alekhine, Rubinstein, etc---so, a semi-annual rating list would not have been as vital back then. But, what about the obvious point about players trying to protect their ratings by declining draws against lower-rated players? I'm not sure, to be honest, what point Sally Simpson is trying to make regarding NY 1924. Yes, Lasker and Capablanca had little to play for in the final round, but they nevertheless went for wins anyway.
What does that prove though?
(Incidentally, Capa should have LOST his last round game but turned it around and won anyway. Not relevant to this posting though) In closing, I still think the absence of ratings definitely would have had an effect on players' playing. And, besides, what about the 50's and 60's, when tournaments (and WC matches) were palpably a lot more frequent ? |
|
Sep-14-17 | | Whitehat1963: So, the bottom line is this is a completely subjective exercise. How do we compare, say, the genius of a Korchnoi or Geller to that of Rubinstein or Tarrasch? There's no fair way to do it. It's a bit like comparing the genius of Isaac Newton to a community college physics and calculus teacher. Newton was obviously a genius, almost peerless in his era, but that doesn't mean he knew more about physics and calculus than that community college professor. |
|
Sep-14-17 | | Petrosianic: <How do we compare, say, the genius of a Korchnoi or Geller to that of Rubinstein or Tarrasch?> Well, your standard was which players stood above all but one player. Tarrasch and Korchnoi certainly did that. I don't know if there's a single player candidate, but I think most players could agree on a Top 10 (in no particular order). There's certainly a practical point to the exercise. People tend to do a serious study only of players who actually became World Champion, however briefly, when in fact there are some non-champions deserving of serious study also. Actually I've long meant (but never gotten around to it) to have a serious look at either Janowsky or Bogolubov's games. They got slaughtered by the cream of the crop, but none of us are going to play the cream of the crop. Their games may have some good lessons for how to deal with lesser players. |
|
Sep-14-17 | | Petrosianic: Sorry no, that was Lambda's standard. |
|
Sep-14-17 | | SChesshevsky: One thing that might give guys like Pillsbury and Rubinstein extra credit is that they had decent records against their world champion peers but never had the chance to be world champion. Maybe if Pillsbury and Rubinstein each had a couple of cracks at the world champion, like Korchnoi, one or both might have made it to the top. |
|
Sep-14-17 | | ughaibu: Of players who were never world champion, Spielmann and Geller probably had the best records against their world champion peers, but I don't think there's a serious case for either of these being the greatest player never to be world champion. |
|
Sep-15-17 | | RookFile: Reuben Fine had a good record against the champs. He might have had a brief period where he was the strongest player in the world. |
|
Sep-15-17 | | ughaibu: Yes, Fine is another about whom one could say the same as Spielmann and Geller. |
|
Sep-15-17
 | | perfidious: Perhaps also, Pillsbury and Rubinstein might have foundered once they sat opposite Lasker; it is a simple matter to engage in all sorts of conjecture based on the tournament records of each that their chances would have been good, whilst forgetting that a match possesses a different atmosphere, and demands a different approach than, tournament play. It is quite enough to offer the examples of Alekhine and Fischer as players who had their troubles with the reigning titleholder before exacting retribution in the hardest of hard ways. |
|
Sep-15-17
 | | tamar: Conjecture on who is the greatest non-champion, but the greatest games played against a champion are Pillsbury vs Lasker, 1896
Rubinstein vs Lasker, 1909 Don't know which is greater, but you had to pull out an immortal performance to beat the guy. |
|
Sep-15-17 | | ughaibu: Here Schlechter vs Lasker, 1904 is another Lasker brilliancy prize loss. |
|
Sep-15-17
 | | keypusher: <tamar: Conjecture on who is the greatest non-champion, but the greatest games played against a champion are Pillsbury vs Lasker, 1896 Rubinstein vs Lasker, 1909> Glad that's settled! :-) I'm fond of Larsen vs Petrosian, 1966 How do you feel about this game from this past January? Aronian vs Carlsen, 2017 Putting aside ranking the non-champs by their best games, how about ranking them by how they play when they're not in form? I wrote this a dozen years ago: <Rubinstein and Korchnoi tend to show up at the top of lists of the strongest non-champs. I think if you were going to choose between them based on their best games you would prefer Rubinstein. The King's Gambit against Hromadka, the counterattack on Thomas at Hastings, the wins over Capablanca and Lasker, the classic against Rotlewi are among my favorite games ever played. But if you were trying to figure out who was stronger day in and day out, I am sure you would pick Korchnoi.> In support of that, I said:
<Look at this game, from Rubinstein's annus mirabulus:Rubinstein vs Spielmann, 1912
It's a fine game by Spielmann, but white is positionally dead by move 15 and resigns at move 32. I can't remember a game in which Capablanca or Lasker just gets over-run like that. Here's a famous loss to Alekhine:
Rubinstein vs Alekhine, 1926
A wonderful combination by Alekhine, but again white is busted inside of 20 moves. A lot of Rubinstein's losses were classics, but I think because he tended to play very rationally and logically, rather than because he was very hard to beat. He didn't have the "smell" for danger that Capablanca was famous for, and he didn't have the slipperiness and stubborness and sheer orneriness that made defeating Lasker or Capablanca such an ordeal. Reti said something like chess was an acquired language for Rubinstein (he learned it relatively late in life) while for Capablanca it was his mother tongue. I have the London 1922 tournament book, when Capa was at his absolute peak. He never seemed to get in the slightest trouble, except via his own carelessness (as against Morrison). Rubinstein played some fine games there, but he doesn't exude power like Capablanca does. I think Rubinstein just had bad days (he was having visible mental problems as early as 1912), and I think he was also a fatalist -- he believed in the game more than in himself. If things started going badly he seemed to expect to lose.> Does that make any sense? |
|
Sep-15-17
 | | moronovich: <Glad that's settled! :-) I'm fond of Larsen vs Petrosian, 1966> I am fund of it too,but Larsen himself,considered his win with the black pieces vs Petrosian for way better. |
|
Sep-15-17
 | | keypusher: <Premium Chessgames MemberSep-15-17 moronovich: <Glad that's settled! :-) I'm fond of Larsen vs Petrosian, 1966>
I am fund of it too,but Larsen himself,considered his win with the black pieces vs Petrosian for way better.> Poets are equally bad at identifying their best poems. :-) |
|
Sep-15-17
 | | tamar: <keypusher>I'm somehow prejudiced against Larsen because of his later failures. Even when I first got the Piatagorsky book, I could not believe he could crush Petrosian like that, and still not win the tournament. Aronian vs Carlsen, 2017 was a great game. I had not realized it at the time, probably for the same reasons I begrudged Larsen his due. |
|
Sep-15-17 | | ughaibu: But let's not forget that Aronian will shortly be disqualified. |
|
Sep-15-17 | | SChesshevsky: Larsen did play well in that 1966 win over Petrosian but might lose some style points as that Sicilian variation of Petrosian is really awful. Much of the time, if you don't lose outright, you certainly suffer with trying to hold an ugly position. Probably a bad choice by Petrosian to play it at all but almost suicide against a clever aggressive player like Larsen. |
|
Sep-15-17 | | SChesshevsky: Oh yeah, since this is a Korchnoi page. Korchnoi also beat Petrosian in the same line in one of their matches. Probably giving the Victor a lot of satisfaction. |
|
Sep-15-17 | | Howard: You didn't specify exactly which game this was, but presumably it was the last game of their, aborted, 1974 match. It was the ONLY Sicilian that was played in their three matches! |
|
Sep-15-17 | | Lambda: <One thing that might give guys like Pillsbury and Rubinstein extra credit is that they had decent records against their world champion peers but never had the chance to be world champion.> You have to be careful with that sort of measure, because it could easily just mean players who always made a special effort against the world champion, as opposed to players who put equal effort into all of their games in a tournament. |
|
Sep-15-17
 | | tamar: <keypusher:...
Glad that's settled! :-)>
No problem. I like to settle these age-old controversies in one fell swoop, so we are still not discussing this in 2027. |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 97 OF 100 ·
Later Kibitzing> |