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Apr-06-06 | | scrambler: Congestion of the brain even for 1884 thats a poor diagnoses. I believe most likely Morphy committed suicide and his family covered it up. No evidence you have Morphy slowly losing his mind over the years and his friends and family doing what any family would do damage control. If Maurian and his family are writting letter s to news papers defending morphy's sanity when at that time he was acting strange than thats a cover up right there. I dont believe the family told the whole truth. When Morphy's family took him to the Lunatic Asylum or whatever it was called either he did something or they were worried he would,I think the worst thing they could do was take him back home even though care for the Mentally ill was nowhere it is today. He's acting strange he ends up dead in his bath with the door lock. To me if your overheating and feeling faint the stupid thing to do would be to lock your self in some room. The funerals the next day Quick funerals and closed coffins can mean the family doesn't want any one viewing the body. Why Because of media,thats good cover itself. |
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Apr-06-06 | | scrambler: How do I know his mother was taken by grief. You dont need evidence to know that the nightmares the lack of appetite,the inability to sleep the guilt feelings all of which are quite normal in any mother whoes child commits suicide,especially if she walks in an finds him in a bath tub of bloody water, this can be too much anyone to bear MY GOD I hope to God I am wrong! Whether something happens 20 years or 20 minutes ago can contribute to a suicide. I'm still affect by what some... did to me in 1989 that I dont talk to them to this day and we were good friends before that thank God I'm still here. Proof! what proof nobody told the whole truth. Heres another pithy ( I like that word) Link http://www.umich.edu/%7Eece/student... My point is that Morphy had more than enough reasons any one of which by itself to end his life. |
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Apr-06-06 | | scrambler: Also interesting to note and this is true. People who have been stalked or targeted to be killed and know it have been known to take their own lives. The stress is so great that the constant fear and worry becomes unbearable. Now imagine this in the paranoid mind. |
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Apr-06-06 | | scrambler: Lastly heat stroke can be use as a form of suicide See # 32. http://www.schenkenberg.nl/suicide.... |
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Apr-06-06 | | historybuff: Scrambler; I think you make some good points. I agree someone with a troubed mind could easily commit suicide, I agree the slightest thing could trigger it. I also think his life long friend Maurian probanly tried to slow the rumors by understating Morphy's problems, (if he was doing fine, then why write anything).
I really don't think in the 19th century it was odd to have a funeral the next day, especally in New Orleans, in the middle of July. A lot of people don't realize the original reason for having flowers at a funeral was to mask the odor. |
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Apr-06-06 | | SBC: <scrambler>
Once again, the possibility is always there. As intriguing as the idea may be - and it is intriguing - there's nothing solid to back it up. This isn't to say the idea isn't worth exploring, but it needs more than broad generalizations to make it plausible. I can give one very good reason why Paul Morphy would not have committed suicide. First, suicide is the refuge of depression. Crazy people seldom kill themselves except by accident (such as thinking they can fly). Morphy was intensely religious. He was a Roman Catholic. Suicide, to a Roman Catholic, is a Mortal Sin that deprives the sinner of Heaven. Therefore, Paul Morphy was philosophically opposed to suicide. |
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Apr-06-06
 | | tamar: Life expectancy was 47.3 in the US in 1900.
So many things could have killed him. Morphy could have as little as an undiagnosed thyroid problem, or high blood pressure. But the speculation about suicide does have some pull, as Morphy agonized about his lost fortune, and the Creole society was also disappearing. |
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Apr-06-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: <scrambler> Your thoughts are certainly interesting, but I don't think they rise above the level of speculation. I can imagine facts that (if they existed) would strengthen your case: if Morphy's family had ever had a concern about him being suicidal, if he had attempted or discussed suicide in the past, if he had exhibited any of the classic suicide-anticipating behavior (giving away his most prized possessions, exhibiting unusual cheerfulness after a period of very dark depression, etc.), but I know of no credible evidence of such behavior. The medical knowledge available in Morphy's time was very limited by today's standards (as today's will be seen by tomorrow's), and I've long been suspicious of the diagnosis of the cause of his death. I suspect the reality is that the physician who examined him was only able to give an educated guess as to the cause of his death (not so different from many cases today). That's a perfectly legitimate professional service for a physician to perform, but it is far from conclusive. I suspect we'll never know what caused the Paul Morphy drop to merge back into the ocean of Universal Mind (if I may wax metaphysical for a moment!) (: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :)
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Apr-06-06 | | Akavall: <Morphy was intensely religious. He was a Roman Catholic. Suicide, to a Roman Catholic, is a Mortal Sin that deprives the sinner of Heaven.> And suiciders weren't allowed to be buried according to Catholic traditions were they? And Morphy was buried according to Catholic traditions, correct? I am sorry, I am not very informed on this issue; however, I do find this discussion to be very interesting. |
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Apr-06-06 | | SBC: <Akavall>
<And suiciders weren't allowed to be buried according to Catholic traditions were they? And Morphy was buried according to Catholic traditions, correct?> I believe that's correct, but it would help to have someone well versed in Roman Catholicism to answer that. |
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Apr-07-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: <Akavall> & <SBC> I am no authority on Roman Catholicism (being a Bishop of a different tradition), but the very issue of Roman Catholic burial for those who take their own lives is raised very poignantly in Shakespeare's *Hamlet*. In Act V. Scene I, directly after the "Alas! poor Yorick" speech, a procession enters the graveyard to bury one who had died. Unknown to Hamlet at the time, they are about to bury Ophelia, the one he loved, who was thought to have ended her own life: [ http://bartleby.com/70/4251.html , starting at line 94 ]: Enter Priests, &c., in procession: the Corpse of OPHELIA, LAERTES and Mourners following; KING, QUEEN, their Trains, &c. Hamlet: And with such maimed rites? This doth betoken The corse [corpse] they follow did with desperate hand
Fordo its own life; ’twas of some estate. Couch we awhile, and mark.
[Retiring with HORATIO.]
Laertes [Ophelia's brother]: What ceremony else?
Hamlet: That is Laertes, A very noble youth: mark.
Laertes: What ceremony else?
First Priest: Her obsequies have been as far enlarg’d
As we have warrantise: her death was doubtful,
And, but that great command o’ersways the order,
She should in ground unsanctified have lodg’d
Till the last trumpet; for charitable prayers,
Shards, flints, and pebbles should be thrown on her;
Yet here she is allow’d her virgin crants,
Her maiden strewments, and the bringing home
Of bell and burial.
Laertes: Must there no more be done?
First Priest. No more be done:
We should profane the service of the dead,
To sing a requiem, and such rest to her
As to peace-parted souls.
Laertes: Lay her i’ the earth;
And from her fair and unpolluted flesh
May violets spring! I tell thee, churlish priest,
A ministering angel shall my sister be,
When thou liest howling.
Hamlet: What! the fair Ophelia?
Queen. Sweets to the sweet: farewell! [Scattering flowers.]
I hop’d thou shouldst have been my Hamlet’s wife;
I thought thy bride-bed to have deck’d, sweet maid,
And not have strew’d thy grave....
[end of passage, after which a confrontation between Hamlet and Laertes ensues] I also recall a passage from Dostoevsky's *The Brothers Karamazov* in which the saintly Father Zossima mentions that though he is officially prohibited from praying for the souls of those who have ended their own lives, in the quiet of his own cell, he does pray for them: "But woe to those who have slain themselves on earth, woe to the suicides! I believe that there can be none more miserable than they. They tell us that it is a sin to pray for them and outwardly the Church, as it were, renounces them, but in my secret heart I believe that we may pray even for them. Love can never be an offence to Christ. For such as those I have prayed inwardly all my life, I confess it, fathers and teachers, and even now I pray for them every day...." http://www.ccel.org/d/dostoevsky/ka... [continued]
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Apr-07-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: [continued]
Though "the Brothers K" is set in the context of the Russian Orthodox Church, I suspect the attitudes on this subject are similar. I once asked a Buddhist friend for whom I have much respect what his opinion was of the "karma" incurred by suicide. His concise response, "It would depend on the circumstances." I thought this a wise (fair) answer. If there is a Divine Law concerning suicide, I hope it is of this kind. ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗
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Apr-07-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: [Correction] In the passage cited above (in my imperfect copy-and-paste), I omitted a line. Here, I include an additional line for clarity. Note: Hamlet remains unseen by the approaching entourage...] [ http://bartleby.com/70/4251.html , starting at line 93]: Hamlet: But soft! but soft! aside: here comes the king. Enter Priests, &c., in procession: the Corpse of OPHELIA, LAERTES and Mourners following; KING, QUEEN, their Trains, &c. Hamlet: The queen, the courtiers: who is that they follow? And with such maimed rites? This doth betoken The corse [corpse] they follow did with desperate hand Fordo [For-do] its own life; ’twas of some estate. Couch we awhile, and mark. [Retiring with HORATIO.] [continue as above]
♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗
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Apr-07-06 | | ckr: <Scrambler Congestion of the brain even for 1884 thats a poor diagnoses. I believe most likely Morphy committed suicide and his family covered it up.> "Congestion of the Brain" was a 19th Century term used to describe many conditions including hydrocephalus, stroke, cerebral hemorrhage, meningitis, and sunstroke. Edgar Allan Poe was diagnosed as having died of congestion of the brain. It is not a poor diagnoses, perhaps you have your facts <scrambler>ed up. :-) |
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Apr-07-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: "Which Patients Are at Greatest Risk of Committing Suicide?" from the American Academy of Family Physicians: http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000415/ti...
More resources:
http://www.mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/... ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗
Though I cannot seem to turn up the reference right now (nor do I remember my sense of how "solid" the study appeared to me), I recall reading years ago that the identifiable group with the lowest suicide rate of all is overweight males. I thought this curious, since one might suppose that, other things being equal, overweight men would be less happy than men of normal weight, and therefore more prone to self-destruction. When I mentioned this curiosity to a psychologically-savvy friend of mine, he replied, "Of course. Why kill yourself when you can order a pizza?!" I don't mean to make light of the awful phenomenon of suicide (nor of the struggle of being overweight), but I think my friend's insight was not without its truth content! And perhaps it contains a lesson for us all (though I'm not quite sure just what that lesson is.) (I also recall reading more recently the remarks of a researcher who was studying obesity in mice. He said, in essence, "It is well-known by those who work with mice that overweight mice are less belligerent and more sociable than mice of normal weight." Perhaps there's an upside to being overweight that doesn't get adequate press?! Maybe that cheerful, round-bellied Buddha is there for a reason!) |
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Apr-07-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: [Addendum] This may be the study I'm thinking of, which suggests that overweight men are the least likely to commit suicide: http://www.healthatoz.com/healthato... But I don't recall it being a Swedish study. Perhaps this is just a different study that discovered the same connection (or the same correlation)?! (: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :)
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Apr-07-06 | | scrambler: ckr lol took me a moment catch on, I need to to look a little deeper into congestion of the brain, brain seizures etc. That stuff is interesting. Edgar Allan Poe he played chess did he not. Premature Burial is one of his best stories,I haven't read it for some years thanks ckr I think I'll read it, right before I go to sleep. |
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Apr-07-06
 | | tamar: Poe's solution to the chess automaton is found here: http://www.chessbase.com/columns/co... Not sure if Poe played chess. I have never seen it mentioned in any biography, but perhaps someone knows for sure. |
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Apr-07-06 | | scrambler: Tamar thanks I knew Poe and chess was connected in some way, He must have been fasinated by the turk since he wrote about it. I dont think he wrote down any of his own games if played any. |
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Apr-08-06 | | Calli: <ckr> Whoa! ckr now a Premium Member! "I refuse to a belong to any club that would have me as member" -Groucho Marx |
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Apr-09-06 | | ckr: Yes, won it as a door prize at the Fiona Apple Fan Club. Missed out on the Macintosh. |
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Apr-09-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: http://www.fiona-apple.com/
YAY!!
(Rumor has it that her favorite Chess engine is Fruit (Computer) :) (: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :)
"I never comment on rumors, especially ones that I start." -Warren Buffett (celebrated investor: http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/ ) (Note: You can now pick up a single share of Berkshire Hathaway stock for a mere $89,200 (U.S.) http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=BRK-A I suspect Mr. Buffett's net worth will exceed that of his friend Bill Gates in a few years, if not sooner...) |
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Apr-09-06 | | Calli: Have The Beatles sued Fiona for use of the Apple trademark yet? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003... |
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Apr-09-06
 | | BishopBerkeley: <Calli> Of course, that might risk a counter-suit from Beetle Bailey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetle...
(: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :)
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Apr-09-06 | | SBC: . In March 1883, Steinitz published his account of his meeting with Paul Morphy. ( http://batgirl.atspace.com/Steinitz... ) Steinitz had this to say:
"Morphy is a most interesting man to talk to. He is shrewd and practical and apparently in excellent health. I am convinced that his derangement is purely local and quite curable if he would place himself under medical treatment. If his derangement were general, his bodily health would suffer and he would knew [sic] that he was ill." A mere 6 months prior, Dr. I.E. Nagle, (a respected doctor, journalist, editor and war veteran) had something quite different to say about Morphy:
http://batgirl.atspace.com/Nagle.html |
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