< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 37 OF 99 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Feb-06-08 | | Tomlinsky: <alexmagnus> Read again. That explicitly wasn't what was written. :) |
|
Feb-06-08 | | hitman84: Tomlinsky is Jewish. |
|
Feb-06-08
 | | alexmagnus: Well.. As I said in my profile, <If you feel misunderstood, feel free to say it.> This looks exactly like a mutual misunderstanding this time:) |
|
Feb-06-08 | | Riverbeast: Stop hating...
And brankat, go to the Teimour Radjabov site, or that of other Azerbaijani and Armenian players, and you will see some good old fashioned anti-other feelings, and historical grievances, aired out as well. Most of you europeans distrust, and don't like Jews. We all know it (and many of your comments prove it) so why don't you just admit this feeling runs rampant among you, instead of pretending it's the same as any other racial dislike? |
|
Feb-06-08 | | Riverbeast: <Holocaust? Others too, most notably all Slavs, especially Russians, fared the same, if not worse.> Did anybody go around accusing Slavs of ritual murder (as the letter spassky signed, apparently did)? were Mexicans, Japanese, English, etc. accused of killing Christ and secretly controlling the world? This is probably the same stuff they teach all of you Eastern Europeans, at home, in primary school, in church, whatever...because I've met very few people from your part of the world that didn't hold some vehement and deep seated feeling against Jews. To answer your question, the real reason why anti-Jewishness is mentioned on this site, is because the haters bring it up first, with their insinuations and comments...As they always do. And some of us are tired of ignoring it, tired of writing it off to ignorance and stupidity, tired of 'grinning and bearing it'. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | brankat: <Riverbeast> It would be wise if You were to get the facts straight first, before accusing others. 1. <..and don't like Jews. We all know it (and many of your comments prove it..)> -- Who is this "we all"? In all my 57 years nobody has ever accused me of anti-semitism, or of anti-anything. -- I have always have a number o fclose friends of Jewish ancestry.
Since this is still a Chess site, amongst my favourite masters are: Steinitz, Dr.Lasker, Nimzovitsch, Rubinstein, Tartakower, Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Flohr, Bronstein, Smyslov, Fischer, and there are others. All of Jewish descent. -- My above post was a question, not an anti-semitic statement. -- Which "many more comments"? -- A month ago I replied to a question on Smyslov's page about his ancestry, and stated "..I couldn't care less about anyone's religion", since I'm not religious. Is it anti-Jewish? - 3 weeks ago I asked <Lamont> to elaborate/explain a Jewish tradition where Jewish ethnicity is continued on a maternal side, simply because I knew little about it. And that's it. Nothing anti-Jewish anywhere there.
2. <instead of pretending it's the same as any other racial dislike?> I don't have to pretend.
I view every national/ethnic, religious, racial intolerance, and hatred, as equally unacceptable, immoral and ultimately dangerous. There is no such thing as a "better/more acceptable" national/religiuos hatred, and a "worse/less acceptable" national/religious hatred. 3. <This is probably the same stuff they teach all of you Eastern Europeans, at home, in primary school, in church, whatever...> You probably know this is simply not true. Historically, for centuries, the Jewish people in Europe, were persecuted the most, in France, Spain, England, Austria, later Germany. Namely, Western Europe. That is why most of them settled in Poland, Russia, Ukraine. I had no intention of starting this kind of a "discussion" by asking for a simple clarification/second opinion. And I have no interest in continuing it. |
|
Feb-07-08
 | | Troller: <Most of you europeans distrust, and don't like Jews. We all know it (and many of your comments prove it) so why don't you just admit this feeling runs rampant among you, instead of pretending it's the same as any other racial dislike?>
<This is probably the same stuff they teach all of you Eastern Europeans, at home, in primary school, in church, whatever...because I've met very few people from your part of the world that didn't hold some vehement and deep seated feeling against Jews.> Now who is the prejudiced one here? |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Jim Bartle: "Most of you europeans distrust, and don't like Jews." This is a gross over-generalization...at best. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | kackhander: Very polite Jim Bartle.
|
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: Sorry, I just call it like I see it. I've spent enough time in Europe, and met plenty of Europeans, both Eastern and Western. This is not something they reveal right away...usually it takes a little conversation, some scratching beneath the surface. The fact that I personally don't 'look' Jewish has encouraged them to open up to me in ways they may not to anybody else. I know it is hardly a scientific survey...just observations from my own personal experiences. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I personally get offended when someone signs a letter accusing Jews of ritual murder, and then other people ask "what are you Jews getting so upset about?"..."Why do you keep making an issue out of anti-Jewishness?" The fact that people still believe this crap in the year 2008 is what I really find interesting. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <brankat> I do owe you an apology for lumping you in with all Eastern Europeans, though...when I was talking about 'your comments', I meant (you people). But I didn't like it when you referred to me as 'you people' (referring to Americans), so it is clear that I had no right to do the same. Sorry about that. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | hitman84: <Riverbeast>Please don't feel let down! I really enjoy reading your posts. Very informative, and you seem to be a very well informed person. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: Thank you hitman84, but maybe I'm a little too defensive and angry. It is depressing that a man as urbane and educated as Spassky would sign this letter... And that it would be signed by other educated, cultural figures...writers, etc. I expect to hear accusations like that from uneducated folk, not men like that. And the fact that I looked up to Spassky made me even more angry. Again, my apologies. The responses to my posts were correct, I was also engaging in generalization and prejudice. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | tud: <Most of you europeans distrust, and don't like Jews.> This is very, very untrue. Although it maybe people anti-jew, anti-armenians (even cited on public websites), anti-albanians or anti-serbs etc., do not generalize. This is highly untrue as of 2008 and I know it. I get this as racist remark. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: I've already apologized twice, tud. I was talking about the vast majority of the MANY Europeans I've met and spoken to. Even the ones who make a show out of condemning letters like this (out of political correctness), will reveal their own anti-Jewish feelings privately, in my experience. Such feelings are endemic in Russia (and in may other countries) though. I think even Russians, if they were honest with themselves, wouldn't deny it. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | MichAdams: <I've already apologized twice, tud. I was talking about the vast majority of the MANY Europeans I've met and spoken to.> Is there any reason to think you encountered a particularly unrepresentative cross-section of the populace? Maybe you, subconsciously, perhaps, provoked them. Maybe you're just overly sensitive. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: Just like I've been overly sensitive about YOUR comments on this site, MichAdams? Perhaps I should repeat some of them so 'objective' observers could make their own evaluations as to your intent...I'd rather not, though. In my experience, you are a case in point, and one of many. |
|
Feb-07-08
 | | alexmagnus: I was born in Russia, lived in Ukraine, now live in Germany in a dormitory where there are many Arabs - and I'm a Jew. Call me crazy, but paradoxically an average Arab is more tolerant towards my Jewishness than an average Russian, Ukrainian or German! In a group of Russians, in any randomly chosen group of 10 people yo always find at least one who is <openly> anti-semite, and my experience is about 80-90% of Russians are "hidden" anti-semites (among them even Jews. I remember when i was at school I complained to the director about my anti-semite classmate. The director: "What! His grandfather has a Jewish name and he himself changed it into a russian one, so he is a Jew!" Well, guess being a Jew doesn't exclude being anti-Jewish...). Germans are rarely showing open anti-semitism (for understandable reason), but if you dig deeper, you get the proportion of about 1:5 (i.e. 1 anti-semite in a random group of 5 people). Ukrainians habe about the same (un)tolerance towards Jews as Russians. As for Arabs - I personally know not many of them (six). One of them is openly anti-Jew (and I can understand it - he is from Palestine...), others don't have it even hidden. So much about them being supposedly the most anti-Jewish nation... |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Petrosianic: <The fact that people still believe this crap in the year 2008 is what I really find interesting.> Not really sure what the date has to do with it, but this part is certainly true: <I personally get offended when someone signs a letter accusing Jews of ritual murder, and then other people ask "what are you Jews getting so upset about?"..."Why do you keep making an issue out of anti-Jewishness?"> I had a non-chessplaying friend in 2004 who walked away with the impression that most chessplayers were screwballs and racists, when she learned that Fischer (the only chessplayer she'd heard of) was a virulent anti-Semite who wanted thousands of Jews rounded up and executed a la <Seven Days in May>, and the majority opinion on the Usenet group I was reading at the time was basically "So, what's the big deal? He's still a great chessplayer, and that's what really matters." Interestingly, the few people who openly <agreed> with Fischer were not as big a deal for her. They were easy to dismiss as Neo Nazis and the like, and so not really representative of the whole crowd. It was the larger group that said "Who cares?" that really did the damage. Spassky used to be fairly high on my list until he signed this letter. I still appreciate that he's quite the gentleman (he apologized for being divisive but not for content), but I can't really admire him any more. He's apparently as big a racist as Fischer, but just doesn't broadcast it as much, or have the accompanying delusional baggage. I wouldn't say that Europeans in general are anti-Semitic, though. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | square dance: if anti-semitism is bad then what does that make anti-anti-semitism? |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <As for Arabs - I personally know not many of them (six). One of them is openly anti-Jew (and I can understand it - he is from Palestine...), others don't have it even hidden. So much about them being supposedly the most anti-Jewish nation...> I agree with that, Alexmagnus. Growing up in NYC I have met many Arabs, and have befriended many of them, and we have had some frank discussions. I find that many of them are anti-Zionist and anti-Israel, which given their experience, I could sympathize with...But I also discovered that almost all of them were not anti-Jewish. I'm glad someone else has observed the same thing. As far as europeans are concerned, I hate to say it but somebody must be teaching them things at a very young age...because like I said before, I don't look Jewish, so a lot of them felt free to vent their anti-Jewish feelings with me in the room...and mind you, these were often people who were educated, 'liberal', and would publicly decry anti-semitism. As far as Fischer was concerned, Petrosianic, I found a Jew spouting off all that crap to be comical, if anything...and a bit sad. That's why I felt more compassion for him than anything else. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <if anti-semitism is bad then what does that make anti-anti-semitism?> I am anti-hate, period... I get offended by racist remarks made toward other groups as well, including those that are not my own. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | square dance: <riverbeast> what do you mean you dont "look jewish"? enough with the stereotypes already. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | chessmoron: I support Melvin Gibsons!? and the Jews killed the dinosaurs. |
|
Feb-07-08
 | | keypusher: <chessmoron> His complete first name is "Mel," actually. But you're right about the dinosaurs, of course. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gi... |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 37 OF 99 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|