< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 38 OF 99 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <what do you mean you dont "look jewish"? enough with the stereotypes already.> It's hardly a stereotype to say that there are common features associated with the Jewish race, as there are with Chinese, Norwegians, etc. If you must know, I am half-jewish by blood (my mother was a convert from Catholicism). I'm often mistaken for Spanish or Greek rather than Jewish. Of course there are simiiarities with all of these races (since they are all essentially Mediterranean) |
|
Feb-07-08 | | square dance: obviously im just trying to bring a little levity to the discussion. although i am intrigued by the somewhat paridoxical stance of "i hate people who hate people". |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <although i am intrigued by the somewhat paridoxical stance of "i hate people who hate people> I do dislike haters, yes...because as far as I'm concerned they are the source of most of the ills in the world. Ultimately, I wish they would change, and realize that we are all human beings... but until they do, I feel compelled to challenge them rather than just ignore them. A lot of it is anger. If you were a member of a minority group that is frequently denigrated, perhaps you would understand. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Petrosianic: <As far as Fischer was concerned, Petrosianic, I found a Jew spouting off all that crap to be comical, if anything...and a bit sad. That's why I felt more compassion for him than anything else.> Comical, maybe. Here's a guy whose mom was a Jewish Communist. When he had a falling out with her, he became strongly anti-Jewish and anti-Communist. It's very Freudian somehow. But it's hardly harmless. Fischer is a role model (more than a role model, practically a religious figure with hordes of fanboy supporters who accept every word he ever said). If he says anti-Semitism is okay, that's clearly not a good thing. I do feel somewhat sorry for Fischer, but I feel sorrier for anyone who suffers because of him. At least Spassky has the good graces to (mostly) keep it to himself. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <I do feel somewhat sorry for Fischer, but I feel sorrier for anyone who suffers because of him. At least Spassky has the good graces to (mostly) keep it to himself.> I don't think anybody really suffered from Fischer's comments. If anything those comments (coming from him) should only prove to any thinking person just how irrational those thoughts are. The letter signed by Spassky, and other leading cultural figures in Russia, I think is far more dangerous because people think that they ARE sane, they ARE educated, therefore they must be right. And that letter apparently is being taken very seriously by many politicians in Russia (many of whom agree with it). I think having the 'good graces' to keep it to yourself is more dangerous than the man who rants it from the highest rooftop. Personally, I would rather someone reveal to the world who they are and what they think, rather than sign a letter and then backtrack from it for the sake of his 'image'...claiming he didn't read the letter, his name was 'not supposed to appear', etc. |
|
Feb-07-08
 | | keypusher: <Petrosianic: <But it's hardly harmless. Fischer is a role model (more than a role model, practically a religious figure with hordes of fanboy supporters who accept every word he ever said). If he says anti-Semitism is okay, that's clearly not a good thing. I do feel somewhat sorry for Fischer, but I feel sorrier for anyone who suffers because of him. At least Spassky has the good graces to (mostly) keep it to himself.> Oh, I think it's harmless. I've encountered lots of Fischer fans here and elsewhere, and they will play Bobby's tune (or most of it) on any topic, be it Curacao, the perfidy of Anatoly Karpov, Max Euwe & FIDE, the fairness of the 9-9 rule, "pre-arranged games," torture in the Pasadena jailhouse, even UBS and the Bekins Moving Co., but they draw up short when Fischer starts on Da Jews. I am sure there are Fischer fans who believe what he said about the Jews, but I've never met them, and I can't believe there are many of them. Even those few, I think, were more likely to be led to Fischer by their pre-existing Judeophobia than the other way around. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: I'm not sure Fischer was a role model as a person anyway, except to people who were already virulently anti-Jewish (as keypusher said) Spassky was much more of a role model to me, as a person (before I learned about this letter). He was handsome, educated, and seemingly a gentleman in every sense of the word. I love Fischer for his chess genius, and what he accomplished, and for the obvious pain he lived his life with. But ultimately the only person he hurt with his comments was himself. Every chessplayer I know who admires Fischer feels the same duality toward him. One of them said to me, "I would like to play chess like Fischer, but I wouldn't want to BE Fischer." |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Petrosianic: Well, the usenet group in question was rec.games.chess.politics, which I haven't posted in for quite some time, simply because it is a den of about 90% nutcases, and 10% sane masochists who think the nutcases will see reason if they just try a little longer. The "Who cares?" crowd is the kind that really upset my friend (who is not Jewish technically, since her father was Jewish but her mother wasn't). I'm not Jewish at all (that I know of) but I can see her point. Anti-Semitism does seem to be more fashionable and acceptable than other kinds of prejudices. Take anti-Africanism, for instance. These days we have to go <looking> for people who are bigoted against blacks, because almost nobody does it openly any more. Those few who do are generally regarded as inbred hicks with the IQ of a glass of water. If Fischer had been out there saying that all blacks were dumb and needed to be shipped back to Africa, it's hard to believe that people would be so lackadaisical about it. More likely his fans would be profoundly embarrassed by it, and be constantly trying to distance themselves from it. But if all he wants is to have all the Jews rounded up and executed, it's more like "Eh. No big deal. But hey, you can't deny he's a great chessplayer." Most still seem to regard him as someone to be admired without qualification, rather than pitied. I'm not sure why the difference in attitudes. You could spin it one way and say that people are more accepting of racism against Jews. Or you could spin it the other way and say that people are more patronizing towards Blacks, and see them as less capable of taking care of themselves than Jews are. Spassky, on the other hand, is a lot like Topalov. They're both players that I once adamired, whose reputations went from high to rock bottom with me literally overnight. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <You could spin it one way and say that people are more accepting of racism against Jews.> Perhaps...but don't forget, many of Fischer's defenders (to this day) are Jewish. I know black people who tell me the same thing, though...they prefer the virulent, outspoken racist who reveals himself as the nutbag he is, rather than the quiet, 'wink-wink' racism that most other people practice. |
|
Feb-07-08
 | | keypusher: <Well, the usenet group in question was rec.games.chess.politics, which I haven't posted in for quite some time, simply because it is a den of about 90% nutcases, and 10% sane masochists who think the nutcases will see reason if they just try a little longer.> I just looked and, oh, man. I am speechless. Except to say that <90% nutcases> looks way low. <If Fischer had been out there saying that all blacks were dumb and needed to be shipped back to Africa, it's hard to believe that people would be so lackadaisical about it.> I thought he did say something like that. If I am wrong, terrific, glad to hear it. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Riverbeast: <Petrosianic> I am curious why you don't like Topalov, though. This widespread dislike of him in the chess world baffles me. Is it just because of toiletgate? |
|
Feb-07-08 | | HNP: "Of course, it will now be pointed out that this is of course an anti-semitic statement..." Yes, it will be, and yes, it most certainly is. Shame on you. For the record, I'm not Jewish myself, but anti-Semitism is very much a reality, perhaps especially in Russia, which gave the world the word "pogrom" and which circulated the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion to the West, which are quoted by fascists and anti-Semites to this day. Incidentally, the letter that Spassky signed quotes extensively from 19th century anti-Semitic literature. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Tomlinsky: <HNP> Well thank you for the lecture. Having done more practically at community and personal level to help combat facism and racism, at a pretty good guess, than many people who, it appears to me, bandy their words about around here as a conscience clearing exerise I'm pretty bullet-proof on that one. In fact, if you knew some of my current curcumstances and past history you would laugh at what you just directed at me. Still, if you can't objectively discern differences between 1) Criticism (not automatically racist/facist by default or to be assumed otherwise), 2) Opinion (not automatically racist/facist by default or to be assumed otherwise), 3) Questioning of motive (not automatically racist/facist by default or to be assumed otherwise), in individual instances without generalising then keep hiding behind that pointed-finger, throw all objectivity out of the window and let the pre-conditioned racists, fascists go on with their work while 'we' all carry on bickering about semantical indifferences for the next 2 millenia. 'They' won't even notice anyway and any that do would probably just join in and laugh but for a different reason. By the way. My post was to <brankat> and self-evidently, unless assumptively, had nothing whatsoever to do with an opinion on Spassky's letter signing. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | HNP: "Having done more practically at community and personal level to help combat facism [sic] and racism, at a pretty good guess" Oh sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to a Nobel Prize winner. |
|
Feb-07-08 | | Everett: <It's hardly a stereotype to say that there are common features associated with the Jewish race, as there are with Chinese, Norwegians, etc.> Jewishness genetically ranges widely, from East to West, Northern Africa to Northern Europe. Beyond this Jewishness is not a "race." It's a way of life that even gentiles can become a part of, as stated in the Story of Ruth. The fact that Jewishness needs to run only through the mother further muddles the pot. Lots of Jews look way different. |
|
Feb-08-08
 | | alexmagnus: <Everett> Still, there are "typical" Jews - those whose genes still carry the genes of people who fleed from Israel/Palestine 2000 years ago. And since Jews - especially at early times - harly interbreeded with non-Jews, this "Jewish look" is still findable in the modern times. You know, converting to Judaism is, though described ages ago, a relatively new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages and early modern times, it were Jews who massively converted to Christianity rather than other way around.... |
|
Feb-08-08
 | | keypusher: <HNP: "Having done more practically at community and personal level to help combat facism [sic] and racism, at a pretty good guess" Oh sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to a Nobel Prize winner.> No need to be sorry for that, as Nobel prizewinners are quite rare, and <tomlinsky> nowhere claimed to be one. But your inability to understand a simple statement and your unjustified attack on the person making it really are blameworthy. <That's> what you should apologize for. |
|
Feb-09-08 | | Riverbeast: <Beyond this Jewishness is not a "race." > I don't agree with that, although it is true that because of the diaspora and intermarriage, you will find Jews with blond hair and blue eyes, and some who look African (as in the case of the Ethiopian Jews, or 'felashas'). An interesting study was done recently with a tribe in southern Africa known as the 'Lemba'...they had always claimed through their oral traditions that they were descendants of Jews, though nobody believed them...until modern DNA tests proved it was true...their priests had similar DNA to the Cohens and Levites (the original priest classes of the Jews) since, like them, they did not marry outside their class. Very interesting study.
|
|
Feb-09-08 | | Shams: <Riverbeast> there are "crypto-Jews" in many strange pockets of the world. I read of a town in Mexico that not only has some clearly Jewish DNA but also has, for centuries, made use of various Jewish symbols and icons. Naturally, they had no idea of the provenance of these items. Fun stuff ain't it. |
|
Feb-10-08 | | brankat: Which, again, goes to show that there are many more things we all have in common, than those which make us somewhat different. Aspects of our common humanity which bind us together, rather than those which tend to separate us. It would be useful to focus on the former, rather than dwell to much on the latter. |
|
Feb-10-08 | | Riverbeast: <It would be useful to focus on the former, rather than dwell to much on the latter> Yes, and that goes for everybody...including, I hope (one day) Mr. Spassky, and others, who slander people they don't know or understand |
|
Feb-10-08 | | MichAdams: We share quite a lot of DNA with the humble amoeba, but I suggest that that which differentiates us is more interesting and worthy of study. Let's discriminate more, not less. |
|
Feb-10-08
 | | Open Defence: <Let's discriminate more, not less.> from a point of study yes.. but not with a view to exploit, anger or frustrate |
|
Feb-10-08 | | whiteshark: "Chess, with all its philosophical depth, its aesthetic appeal, is first of all a game in the
best sense of the word; a game in which are revealed your intellect, character, will." -- Boris Spassky |
|
Feb-10-08 | | MichAdams: I vow never to exploit, anger or frustrate the humble amoeba. |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 38 OF 99 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|