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| Feb-14-17 | | Sularus: quite a scalp collection |
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Jan-18-18
 | | MissScarlett: Anyone have access to the Hindle/Jones book, <The English Morphy?: The Life and Games of Cecil De Vere, First British Chess Champion>? I'm interested in how strong the evidence is for the claim that, per Wikipedia, Cecil was likely <the illegitimate son of William Cecil De Vere, a naval officer and son of the second Baronet of Curragh>. |
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Jan-18-18
| | MissScarlett: Freeman's Journal, July 15th 1852, p.4:
<July 8, at Burnham, William Cecil de Vere, Esq. of the Royal Navy, fourth son of the late Sir Aubrey de Vere. Bart., of Curragh Chase, county Limerick, to Sophia, youngest daughter of J. Allen, Esq, of Burnham.> Dublin Evening Mail, February 16th 1869, p.3:
<Captain William Cecil de Vere, R N, died at the Pleasaunce, Torquay, on Feb 2, aged 45.> This would mean William was born c.1823, making him 22-23 when Cecil was born, and Cecil almost 23 when William died. And both passed away in Torquay. |
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| Jan-18-18 | | john barleycorn: <MissScarlett: Freeman's Journal, ...> Any relation to the Freeman here? |
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Jan-21-18
| | MissScarlett: William Cecil De Vere:
1843 - Promoted to Mate (rank later equivalent to Sub-Lieutenant) on board HMS Stromboli: http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowShip.php?i... 1846 - Promoted from Mate to Lieutenant on board HMS Collingwood: http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowShip.php?i... 1849 - Appointed as Lieutenant on HMS Racer: http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowShip.php?i... For our purposes, of interest is that in the spring of 1845 when he allegedly sired Cecil, he was apparently stationed with the Stromboli in/off Ireland, though he may still have had access to the British mainland. His tour with the Racer apparently ended in March 1852, so it can be no coincidence that he married Sophia in July 1852. Haven't yet found what he did then. |
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Jun-04-18
| | MissScarlett: < In 1865, he won a match against Wilhelm Steinitz (+7 -3 =2), with Steinitz giving odds of pawn and move.> Newspaper reports indicate this match extended into 1866, but they're not sufficiently clear to tell which games should be redated. |
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Aug-25-18
| | MissScarlett: Discovery of the birth certificate revealed not only his actual name and year of birth (1846, not 1845), but also that he was English, not Scottish. But where did the notion that he was born in Montrose originate? Was this another deliberate false trail? |
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| Aug-25-18 | | zanzibar: And where did the name Brown come from?
https://web.archive.org/web/2008051... http://www.edochess.ca/batgirl/Jose... . |
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| Aug-25-18 | | zanzibar: Oh, and why couldn't Hindle find the birth certificate *before* he published his book on the man? . |
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Aug-26-18
| | MissScarlett: <And where did the name Brown come from?> See the section <Terminal Illness>: https://mannchess.org.uk/People/De%... Or if you're asking why he chose Brown, maybe it was simply a nod to Valentine Green. |
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Aug-26-18
| | MissScarlett: The only connection between De Vere and Montrose I could find is a reminiscence by George Alcock MacDonnell in the <ISDN> of November 19th 1881, p.227: <In 1867 we both visited Dundee, where we were most hospitably entertained by his Scotch relatives, and afterwards we spent a most delightful time at Montrose, and the burn which, fourteen miles northward, glides at the foot of one of the Grampian Hills.> Montrose is some 25 miles north of Dundee. Perhaps it's where De Vere's mother came from, and so became associated with his birthplace. The John Henderson piece from <TWIC> in 2001, linked to above has <some references to his birthplace being Melrose>. Melrose is about 80 miles to south of Montrose. |
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Aug-26-18
 | | Sally Simpson: David Hooper and myself searched the archives at New Register House in Edinburgh for three days looking for De Vere's D.O.B. David was searching the surname name of Brown possibly born on the 14th of Feb. No success (obviously)
(Montrose/Melrose may have been a typo/auto-correct by John or the TWIC crew. The Grampian Hills mentioned are in the north of Scotland.) |
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Aug-26-18
| | MissScarlett: <Montrose is some 25 miles north of Dundee. Perhaps it's where De Vere's mother came from, and so became associated with his birthplace.> Well, I'm reminded that De Vere's mother apparently came from Wales: https://mannchess.org.uk/People/De%... The <Chess Players' Chronicle> obituary cited therein doesn't touch on his birthplace: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt... |
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| Aug-26-18 | | zanzibar: I have some issues with Hindle's claim. Not even Yorkshire applies the info with conviction: <Cecil Valentine De Vere appears <possibly> to have been the illegitimate son of a Welsh-born servant girl called Catherine (or Katherine) Mathews. <Purely circumstantial evidence> suggests his father may have been William Cecil De Vere, a Royal Naval officer who was a son of the 2nd Baronet of Curragh, or else another member of the same family.The birth of “Valentine John Cecil De Vere Mathews” was registered at St. James, Westminster, in the first quarter of 1846. The name contains all the elements of that of Cecil Valentine De Vere, but <jumbled up a bit, and with extra bits added in>. ... Such quarterly returns, whilst freely accessible on line, <fail to give details such as exact date of birth and parents’ names>. For those recourse is needed to a birth certificate or baptismal record. It is to Owen Hindle that we owe thanks for digging out the underlying birth certificate and publicising its content in the British Chess Magazine’s Quotes & Queries section. A subsequent book, “The English Morphy” (unseen), by Owen Hindle & Bob Jones, <presumably covers> all that follows here. ...> Look at all the waffling...
<possibly>, <purely circumstantial evidence>, <jumbled up a bit, and with extra bits added in>, <fail to give details such as exact date of birth and parents’ names>, <presumably> I'm underwhelmed, plus I can't see the original scans directly, if at all. That I think is the obligation of Hindle when making his claims. Did he reproduce the scans in the BCM articles? (I doubt it). I like the Zanchess approach - just show it.
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Aug-27-18
| | MissScarlett: <In the first recorded mention of De Vere, The Era, 20 Dec. 1861, a report of a simultaneous display by Paulsen on 16 December, Lowenthal was impressed by the precocious skill of the '13-year-old' De Vere, implying that he was born in 1848.> Cecil Valentine De Vere (kibitz #17) A minor correction: <The Era> in question was dated December 22nd (p.4), not the 20th. The list of Paulsen's opponents has: <V. de Vere, Esq., No. 5;>, suggesting he was still known as <Valentine>. <We should not omit to mention that Mr de Vere who contended against Mr Paulsen on Board No. 5 is a youth of thirteen years of age. The young gentleman, though he lost the game, played remarkably well, and gave indications of promise for the future.> |
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| Dec-01-19 | | spingo: De Vere was a Londoner, but he may have had connections to De Vere House in Lavenham in Suffolk. That house was used as Harry’s house in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Fans of Harry Potter can buy the house for about £1,000,000. It is on the market now. It is Grade I listed and attracts hordes of non-paying tourists. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/propert... |
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Dec-01-19
 | | moronovich: <De Vere was a Londoner, but he may have had connections to De Vere House in Lavenham in Suffolk.> Thought it was in "Wall de Morts" warehouse !? |
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| Oct-30-21 | | Nosnibor: The following game is unusual inasmuch De Vere offered a draw in a won position although his allie Down pointed out that the game could be won after 33.Rb6 Rc1, 34.Rg1 etc. White: C. De Vere & H.F. Down Black: J .Lord & J.J. Watts Ruy Lopez 1.e4 e5,2.Nf3 Nc6,3.Bb5 f6, 4.0-0 Nge7, 5.d4 exd4, 6.Nxd4 a6, 7.Ba4 b5,8.Bb3 Na5,9.Nc3 g6,10.Nd5 Nec6, 11.f4 Bc5,12.c3 Nxb3,13.axb3 0-0,14.Kh1 Ne7,15.Nxb5 c6,16.b4 Bxb4, 17.Nxb4 cxb5, 18.Be3 d6,19.Qd4 Bb7,20.Rad1 Rc8,21.Qxd6 Qxd6,22.Rxd6 Bxe4, 23.Re6 a5, 24.Rxe4 axb4, 25.Rxe7 bxc3, 26.bxc3 Rxc3, 27.h3 b4,28.Rd1 Rf7,29.Re6 b3,30.Bd4 Rc4, 31.Bxf6 Rxf6,32.Rxf6 b2. Drawn. |
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| Oct-30-21 | | Nosnibor: The De Vere & Down v. Lord & Watts game was played at the City of London Chess Club, September 1873. |
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Oct-30-21
| | MissScarlett: Can’t do anything without a source. And why cannot you submit this yourself? |
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| Oct-31-21 | | Nosnibor: The source of the game was "The Field". I have tried to submit without success. |
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Feb-14-22
| | MissScarlett: The traditional player of the day. |
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Feb-15-22
 | | offramp: There's a race on today, 15th February 2022.
16:08 @ Newcastle MISSCARLETT 13/2.
Definitely has chances. |
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Feb-16-23
| | MissScarlett: < by John Townsend » Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:15 pm Regarding the mention of William Cecil de Vere (above), my article in CHESS, May 2015, pages 38-39, proved that he was not the father, and there is no evidence that "she claimed the father of the child was William Cecil De Vere".> https://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopi... How did he prove it? |
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| Jun-06-23 | | Nosnibor: De Vere won the 1st British Chess Association Challenge Cup in 1866 which formerly established him has the first British Champion. He won it with a 100% score of 9 points from 9 games, excluding his 3 games won by default against Trelawney. Later that year he won the 2nd Counties Chess Association Tournament at Redcar with 6 points from 7 games. Second equal were Thorold, Wisker and Owen with 5. In this competition draws did not count and had to be replayed. |
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