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Jun-16-07
 | | Open Defence: <The point is the nobody offended India> <Valgua> please read the posts below.. i certainly feel the posts about Indian heat and food were uncalled for.. <simply put on warm clothes> is akin to thinking that a mere AC beats the heat which in 40 degrees Florence you know isnt true...
we can argue for the sake of arguing.. but there was nothing wrong about the conditions in India .. yes the conditions would have been different that probably Salov was used to in some respects.. but if that was the reason for his poor show it indicates poor adaptability |
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Jun-16-07
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: If I, for example, were to travel to India (or Italy or any other warm country) it is practically certain that I would experience health problems from the heat and my chess would greatly suffer, no matter how much hospitality the local people would show and what sort of hotel I would live in. This is a fact. That there is no reason to expect Valery Salov to be different to me in that respect is also a fact and doesn't question the hospitality of Indians in any way.
<that is Salov's inability to adjust to the conditions rather than the "Indian" heat..> If Salov can't adjust to Indian heat, it's hardly his fault. It's caused by the changed conditions, not by anything Salov does. India is a warm country. Not everybody copes well with warmth. Also, India really does have different food than Western countries. This doesn't mean it's worse in any way. To say these things is not any kind of insult. |
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| Jun-16-07 | | Karpova: <Open Defence: yes the conditions would have been different that probably Salov was used to in some respects.. but if that was the reason for his poor show it indicates poor adaptability>
Or his poor health which you generously overlook.
The stat of Salov's health is crucial so comparing him to Anand travelling to colder parts of our planet is completely senseless and out of place for anyone who doesn't strive for winning an argument at all cost...I completely agree with <Valgua> and <SwitchingQuylthulg>. |
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Jun-16-07
| | Open Defence: < SwitchingQuylthulg > if you were a top GM travelling to India you would be put up in excellent hotels which would serve mostly continental food.. so the food angle is really irrelevant unless you yourself chose to eat the local style food.. even then in the top hotels the Indian food has considerably less spice and is moderated for western guests.. further.. the heat would have been mitigated by air conditioning and the area of India he visited was not a humid one.. please understand that very often the best facilities are provided for sportsmen visiting India .. they really have no or little cause to complain.. if some of them do indeed feel out of sorts i would put that down to the luck of the draw as in anyone can fall ill anywhere ...... for example i fell ill when I visited Sri Lanka.. nothing to do with Sri Lanka.. i just fell ill.. probably due to the sea food.. but because i chose to eat it.. there were certainly other things to eat.. well if this point cannot be understood there is no sense in trying to explain it further |
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| Jun-16-07 | | Valgua: <is akin to thinking that a mere AC beats the heat which in 40 degrees Florence> No, it's not. Any person that uses to travel between warm and cold countries can tell you that it's much easier to cope with a cold climate (well, may be not -40 °C...) than with a warm one. That's the main reason why we in Italy play our football championship during winter (and many italian cities are rather cold in winter) and not in summer. The loss of liquids and the humidity decrease the human body's capacity to perform well. It's a fact. |
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Jun-16-07
| | Open Defence: <Karpova> <Or his poor health which you generously overlook. > I am not overlooking anything.. I dont care too much for that "Indian heat / food" remark that's all .. hope you understand |
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| Jun-16-07 | | Karpova: <Open Defence: I dont care too much for that "Indian heat / food" remark that's all .. hope you understand>
Oh, that's why you came up with defending India's honour - because you didn't care... <for example i fell ill when I visited Sri Lanka.. nothing to do with Sri Lanka.. i just fell ill.. probably due to the sea food.. but because i chose to eat it.. there were certainly other things to eat.. well if this point cannot be understood there is no sense in trying to explain it further>
There would be no discussion if you understood what you are writing... You say Salov could have had this and that blah blah but what if he chose to go out on the streets and taste indian food etc. and then had to find out that he didn't feel well afterwards... Neither Indian hospitality nor Salov would be to blame. |
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| Jun-16-07 | | technical draw: When I was in Langley being interviewed in a couple of languages for my job at the CIA during lunch break I went to an Indian Restaurant. The heat was fine and the food smelled great, but I was so nervous that all I asked for was an Indian beer. It was so good I wanted another one but I had to go back to the interviews. So if you can't take the heat, grab a beer and if you don't like the food grab a beer. |
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Jun-16-07
| | SwitchingQuylthulg: <so the food angle is really irrelevant unless you yourself chose to eat the local style food.. even then in the top hotels the Indian food has considerably less spice and is moderated for western guests..> The food is not a big issue here. But try to understand that the products are still different. Some people can eat, say, Finnish wheat bread happily but fall ill because of French wheat bread. Just try to imagine what Indian wheat bread, even more different despite still being wheat bread, would do. <please understand that very often the best facilities are provided for sportsmen visiting India .. they really have no or little cause to complain..> I have not questioned that at any point. It's simply that some of them might be in such a form that it's not enough to keep them healthy. Of the hundreds of European chess players who visited India, I have only heard of Valery Salov to suffer greatly. This is a good score but it does not mean that the case of Valery Salov had nothing to do with India. If hundreds of Indian chess players visited, say, Verkhoyansk, and some of them were physically weak to begin with, I'd bet heavy money on at least one of them suffering. This would not be the fault of Verkhoyansk or the hospitality of local people. But it would still result from the differences between Verkhoyansk and India. Well, if you really cannot understand this point then there is no sense in trying to explain it. |
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Jun-16-07
| | Open Defence: <But it would still result from the differences between Verkhoyansk and India> I have not disputed that.. I do not think that post about Indian heat and food was justified.. please dont try to justify it.. I am not sure why you try to defend Manuel Garcia's post |
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| Jun-16-07 | | Valgua: <I am not sure why you try to defend Manuel Garcia's post> Because you accused him of insulting India when in fact he did not. |
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Jun-16-07
| | Open Defence: < Valgua: > I did no such thing.. I just dont like the misconception that the food and facilities in countries like India are in anyway inferrior.. and hence I did not like his post.. there is a difference if you read what i said.... |
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| Jun-16-07 | | Karpova: <Karpova: Nobody's critizing Indian food, hospitality or anything else.>
<Open Defence: Thats not the way I see that post...> <Karpova: There's still no need to defend India's honour as nobody's questioning it.>
<Open Defence: <Karpova> thats not the way i saw it..> And now:
<Valgua: Because you accused him of insulting India when in fact he did not.>
<Open Defence: < Valgua: > I did no such thing..> No comment.
<Open Defence: I just dont like the misconception that the food and facilities in countries like India are in anyway inferrior.. and hence I did not like his post..> Nobody ever claimed that Indian facilities were inferior. Not even <Manuel Garcia> claimed it. And that's not what all of the debate was centered around. <Open Defence: there is a difference if you read what i said....>
Did you ever consider the possibility that's actually you who doesn't understand what others write? |
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Jun-16-07
| | Open Defence: <Karpova> I dont understand why you are bating me... this comment <Indians heat and food annihilated> was uncalled for.... I understand what you are trying to say.. but i feel that comment by Manuel Garcia was uncalled for.. why do you keep bring this up over and over again ? |
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Jun-16-07
| | Open Defence: <No comment. > <Karpova> if you have no comment dont make one... simple...being sarcastic is also uncalled for... |
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| Jun-16-07 | | Karpova: <Open Defence>
First, don't take everything <Manuel Garcia> wrote literally. He could have meant it differently.
Secondly, this comment was still no claim that he regarded indian facilities inferior to other ones.
Thridly, my comment <no comment> alluded to the posts I quoted (because they tell the story) and no sarcasm was involved. |
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Jun-16-07
| | Open Defence: <Karpova> I did not like Garcia's post.. he might have meant a 100 things.. but the way it stands.. i do not like it.. i have not for even one moment disputed your points... but i cannot understand why you try to defend the post.. i am not saying he did it with mal intent.. i did not like the post... now tell me is there anything further on this ? |
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| Jun-16-07 | | technical draw: I just noticed that Manuel Garcia's post was 2 years ago and he hasn't posted in 7 months. He's in Berlin, maybe the German food got to him? |
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| Jun-16-07 | | whiteshark: LOL <tech, <So if you can't take the heat, grab a beer and if you don't like the food grab a beer. <This worked good for you, but I suspect that it would have been worked for Salov in the mentioned Indian tournament.>> > |
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| Jun-17-07 | | Karpova: <Valgua: Btw, as far as I know the italian opening is 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc5 Bc4 4. c3 (with the idea of pushing the pawn in d4) while Gioco Piano is 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc5 Bc4 4. d3 (and the eventual d4 push is postponed).> This is the italian opening: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5
and every following move a subvariation (4.d3, 4.c3, 4.Nc3 or the Evans Gambit). You can look it up, i.e. in Alexej Suetin's opening book. |
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Jun-17-07
| | Open Defence: if I am not mistaken 4d3 is the Giuoco <Pianissmo> or the <Quiet> Italian Game....remember reading this somewhere.. but these days the books may not be so reliable ... |
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| Jun-17-07 | | Karpova: Giuoco Pianissimo (very quiet): 4.d3
Giuoco Piano (quiet): 4.c3
seems that <quiet> and <very quiet> are meant in regard to the King's Gambit. |
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| Jun-24-07 | | Valgua: <This is the italian opening: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 and every following move a subvariation (4.d3, 4.c3, 4.Nc3 or the Evans Gambit). You can look it up, i.e. in Alexej Suetin's opening book.> It's a common mistake. In fact in Italy we distinguish between the "Italian Game" (Partita Italiana) and Giuoco Piano (Quiet Game), the main difference is the fourth move. Giuoco Piano is so called because the white reffuses to immediately attack the center with 4.c3 followed by d4. |
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| Aug-18-07 | | Manuel Garcia: To Open Defense:
I wrote the next: "The indians heat, food and water anihilated Salov. He got stomach problems from the very begining till the very end. Kamsky was a sportsman while Salov is weak phisically: when he was a baby he was expected to die soon. Obviously he did not, but his organism is very sensible" without the intention of offending you nor India. So, if I did it, I sincerely apologize to you and to everyone who may felt offended by these lines. Next. both 1970 and 1986, during the soccer football world championships in Mexico, the english delegation did take with it their own water supplies, in order to avoid the mexican water. I am mexican and I have lived in Mexico City the overwhelming greatest part of my life, and all of my european friends, without exception, who visited us (my wife is swiss) did get stomach problems, even then, when we cooked at home. My brother-in-law later told us, that he spent all the returning flight to Switzerland sitting on the plain's toilet.
We did once travel to the beach in Oaxaca (south Mexico; quite hot and humid), and my wife's swiss friends did fall very ill, because precisely of the heat, the humidity, the food and the water.
In every occasion my foreign friends blamed the mexican water, food, altitude and pollution (in Mexico City). I have never considered it as an offense against Mexico.
Two years ago I visited my elderly sister, who lives in Ukraine. We went to the dacha of her parents-in-law, where I decided to drink a glas of milk. It was a disaster for me. |
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Aug-18-07
| | Open Defence: <Manuel Garcia> no doubt you did not intend to offend anyone.. the point of my post was that in such events the facilities provided by India have been quite good, in fact some of the Indian sportsmen (not chessplayers) have complained about the facilities abroad!! I just felt that your post maybe could have been framed a bit better... maybe <The indians heat, food and water anihilated Salov.> would have been <The heat, food and water anihilated Salov.> ... the post made it sound as if rather than Salov's inability to cope.. the <Indian> environment and food was to blame.. it may sound that I am making a mountain out of a mole hill, and further, your original post was some time ago.. interestingly when some Swiss friends of mine came to visit they boldly tried some of the local spicy food (though they had ample opportunities to avail food with less spice and from better resturaunts) despite my warning and it did not agree with their stomachs so I know what you were trying to say.. I just did not like the way it was said.. may be I am being too sensitive.. given that you did not mean any malice what so ever.. so maybe this chapter should be closed.. but I certainly did not think you meant any harm.. just did not like the way the words were put
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