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Sep-21-04
 | | offramp: I play the Caro-Kann and the Panov-Botvinnik is the toughest test, I think. White should just take the pawn! He takes it in this game and wins - and that's Ulf Andersson losing! Pachman vs Ulf Andersson, 1977 although my database gives the opening as 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 ♘f6 5.♘c3 g6 6.♗g5 ♗g7 7.♘f3 0-0 8.♗xf6 ♗xf6 9.♘xd5 ♗g7 ..., i.e. not a King's Indian at all. |
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| Sep-21-04 | | jmcd2002: <i.e. not a King's Indian at all.> Interesting game - it looks like both move orders get you there - which supports my claim about transposition, eh?? =) |
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| Sep-21-04 | | Dudley: What about the line 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.cxd4 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6? This has been recommended in the literature but every time I have tried it I have been taken apart. Any notable failure or success with this line? |
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| Sep-21-04 | | refutor: <1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6> tal has had some nice wins in that line...i try to follow his line if i get the chance 6.Qb3 Bg7 7.cxd5 http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... Tal vs Botvinnik, 1966 Dolmatov vs Adams, 1989 and there's lots of other smooth wins by WHite. I'm not sure how it holds up theoretically, but it seems a lot *easier* to play for White. Actually, I can check how it holds up theoretically...after 7.cxd5 O-O Varnusz' "Play the Caro-Kann" states "The starting position of the variation. White has won a pawn but is lagging behind in development. Black may stalk the d5 pawn with ...Nb8-d7-b6 or Nb8-a6-c7, but if White continues to delay his development he can try e7-e6?! aiming at opening up the position. The counter-sacrifice of the pawn by means of d5-d6, which often leads to a space advantage for White, is a fairly common resource". When I played the Caro-Kann many moons ago, I craved developement as Black so i played 5. ...e6 and 6. ...Bb4 and sometimes transposed to a Nimzo-Indian. My amateur evaluation, 5. ...g6 is better for white |
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| Sep-21-04 | | checkpat: Does anybody play the Spielman attack with White:
1e4, c62Nc3 d5 3 Qf3
that received some publicity on some French site recently? |
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| Sep-21-04 | | Helloween: <checkpat> If you want to see a nice slaughter, check out the game link at the bottom of this post. Against the Spielman, 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.d4 Ndf6! 6.c3 Nxe4 7. Qxe4 Nf6 8.Qc2 Bg4 gives Black a comfortable equality, as in Psakhis vs Razuvaev, 1981. Black should, however, stay away from 3...d4 4.Bc4! Nf6?!(4...e6 is more unclear)5.e5 dxc3 6.exf6 cxd2+ 7.Bxd2 gxf6 8.0-0-0  , as in the killer miniature F Ribeiro vs Lloret Ramis Juan Jose, 1995. |
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| Sep-21-04 | | sneaky pete: The name is a mystery, as Spielmann never played nor recommended this line. It was first played in Smyslov vs Flohr, 1950. Against <Helloween>'s 3... dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.d4 Ndf6 (from Lutikov vs Petrosian, 1960, not in this database) the gambit 6.Bd3 Qxd4 7.Ne2 .. is critical. No games here. The French site <checkpat> mentions is http://www.mjae.com/caro-kann-spiel... (I googled it up in a jiffy). |
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| Sep-21-04 | | Dudley: Thank you <refutor> I think that comfirms my feeling that I need a new answer for the Panov-Botvinnik, which I consider to be more dangerous for Black than the Advance. |
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Sep-21-04
| | offramp: In the Panov-Botvinnik, after white plays ♗g5, I think black should play either ...♘e4 or ...♗e6. |
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| Sep-24-04 | | checkpat: <Sneaky Pete> Thanks for the info! |
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| Oct-02-04 | | dragon40: A little more on the Panov-Botvinnik atack...it is really the line we were lst discussing:
1. e4 c6, 2. d5 d5, 3. cd5 cd5, 4. c4 Nf6, 5. Nc3 g6 this is basically out of favor in higher circles more to the fact that White keep a very healthy plus on the main loine and Black cstruggles throughout thew whole line, which most players do not relish to try and do!
<...i try to follow his line if i get the chance 6.Qb3 Bg7 7.cxd5 > <refutor>
This is the main line that Refutor correctly pointed to as being totally out of favor for Black.
ther are quite a few choices for the black pieces after 7 cxd5 but none lead to equality...of course, as we all have said, we are not GM's so you could take a chance BUT chances are against a good player playing the White pieces and that plays the Panov, you play that line as Black, dark days lie ahead of you for sire :(
Even Michael Adams has been crushed in this line as Black, and Timman also, so beware!
As I have said, I love the Caro, and it is my main staple with the black pieces against E4 BUT I wont play this particular line as black..ever ever ever :) |
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| Oct-02-04 | | Dudley: So I take it that the line for black with.. Bb4 is the current favorite, possibly transposing into a Nimzo Indian. There are also lines with ...Bg4 and there is the traditional main line with Black trying to make it to the endgame vs. White's isolated queen pawn. |
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| Oct-02-04 | | dragon40: <dudley> The 6...Bb4 is a favorite and a main line as of now, it seems to give the most chances for both sides.
there is another 6th move black can consider though... ( and this is after of course: 1. e4 c6, 2. d4 d5, 3. cd5 cd5, 4, c4 Nf6, 5.Nc3 e6, 6. Nf3) a) Be7 is also popular, but a little more passive...
and White can always play 6. Bg5, which is a whole other topic we can discuss then also :)
I love this type of forum and hope other CK players join and anyone if you please e-mail me and we can talk aobut it in even more depth and exchange ideas and gamers!
JeffJ45862@aol.com
Take care for now... |
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| Oct-02-04 | | refutor: i played a blitz match v. my brother yesterday and gave the g6 caro (as black) a try and it worked out okay after 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Nf3?! Bg7 7.Qb3 dxc4 with play very similar to a grünfeld. obviously 6.cxd5 or 6.Qb3 is stronger |
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| Oct-03-04 | | dragon40: <refutor> Good point, as you played that line as the black poeces agaisnt your brother, it bears out what we say..these "inferior lines" are that, but against a player that might not know the "best moves" you can get away with it and get a respectable opening position! The problem is IF you want to take the chance that your opponent is not up to date on the best line, in an OTB, I usually do not assume that, if I am playing correspondence or e-mail chess, I, at times , will play lesser lines to try them and see what my opponent does or does not know :) |
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| Nov-09-04 | | ongyj: Hello Chessgames.com! I just have a question of opinion on caro-kann and maybe french, as idealistic defence.
For a while I have been working on 1.e4 defences, and selected a few that I particularly like: Caro-Kann, Sicilian, Pirc, Centre counter, and French. Unfortunately, it seems that Caro-Kann is almost certainly out of my list due to a gambit line: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.g4 Bg6 5.h4 h6(or 5...h5 6.e6 ...) 6.h5 Bh7 7.e6... White sacrificed a pawn to hinder Black's development, particularly Black's dark square f8 Bishop. Not to mention, Black's King is somewhat exposed and once White is able to get the Queen onto g6 square check, the Black King must move around. I really think that White has more than sufficient compensations for the lost pawn, and thus Caro-Kann no longer works for me. Comments or Criticisms about this view please?
Also, the French defence is playable, but with regards to the symmetrical advantage theory then in the Exchange variation Black is 'doomed'. I may have exaggerated on this, but 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 and we are at a mirror position. With best play White cannot lose... But if this is true, then why does white fare so badly in statistics? If not does this fact dismiss the symmetrical advantage theory?
Really appreicate your comments and criticisms. Thank you. |
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| Nov-09-04 | | whiskeyrebel: Hi Ongyj...I encountered the same Caro line you mentioned in a tournament recently (my opponent and I were both class "A" players..not masters). I failed to find the "right" move over the board and later investigated some IM & GM games. After 4.G4...I think I should have replied 4....Be4..after 5. F3 there can follow 5...Bg6 6.h4 h5 7. e6 and an effective move that holds things together: 7....Qd6. White is quite exposed. In many games I looked at I found the white squared bishops were exchanged..the Kingside pawns locked up..leaving black with a fantastic eventual outpost for a knight on f5. I can't wait until I face "G4" again in competition! |
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| Nov-09-04 | | ongyj: Thank you whiskeyrebel :) While I'm not totally convinced that this refutes the gambit line, I'm really glad to realise the existence of 4...Be4. Even if I've abandoned the caro-kann defence as Black, at least now I'm a more aware player as White. Thank you once again, and may you enjoy chess more every day :) |
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| Nov-09-04 | | refutor: another move after g4 is Bd7. the idea is to wait on the g4 push until black has played ...e6 such as in the line 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 e6 5.g4. even petrosian played 4. ...Bd7 :) Bronstein vs Petrosian, 1959 i prefer ...Be4 myself but some of those lines are wild, so if people are looking for a "quieter" alternative 4. ...Bd7 is definitely playable |
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| Nov-10-04 | | whiskeyrebel: It's always an acceptable option to follow Petrosian of course. For sure I won't let the 3.E5 variation drive me away from the CK. |
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| Nov-10-04 | | ongyj: re-hi guys:) The 4...Be4 line looks better, and I expect to continue with 5.f3 Bg6 6.h4 h5 7.e6 Qd6 8.exf7+ Bxf7 9.Ne2 ... While White is exposed, Black is too congested! I can't seem to find a good square for Black's light Bishop. I mean, the purpose of playing 3...Bf5 is to prevent the Bishop from getting 'stuck'. Now that the Bishop relocates on f7, that defeats the purpose altogether. While 7...Qd6 is a seemingly aggresive counter move, it further hinder's Black's dark square Bishop. These severe problems may explain why I dropped the Caro-Kann off my ideal defence list.
Taking another look at 4...Bd7, I have no doubt about Petrosian lines but if I knew that I have to play 4...Bd7, I think it is only fair to say that the French Defence is a better choice altogether. After all, I save myself one move. I await more criticisms and comments and I thank you all for that :) |
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| Nov-10-04 | | Dudley: Yes, I agree that the French Defense plays better against the Advance Variation than the Caro does,even if White knows what he is doing in both cases. It's the main lines of the French I don't like as well. Every opening has a problem line or two. With 4...Bd7 or 4...Be4 I think Black can survive the opening. White also exposes his own king with g4 and f3. If white players are playing the Advance line the majority of the time due to the recent Kramnik-Leko game then it might be a good idea to switch to the French for a while, or play something really strange like 3.e5 g6!? |
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| Nov-27-04 | | PizzatheHut: I played an interesting Caro-Kann Advance game earlier tonight, and I'm curious to hear some feedback on it. The last few moves are pretty ugly, but were played with very little time left. I've analyzed a bit with the opponent, but the game is very complicated. Thanks in advance for any opinions. [Event "ICS Rated standard match"]
[Site "freechess.org"]
[Date "2004.11.26"]
[Round "-"]
[White "-----"]
[Black "PizzatheHut"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo "1719"]
[BlackElo "1638"]
[TimeControl "900+5"]
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O Ne7 7. Nh4 Bg6 8.
Nd2 c5 9. c3 Nc6 10. Nxg6 hxg6 11. Nf3 Be7 12. g3 Qb6 13. h4 O-O-O 14. Kg2 Kb8 15. a3 Na5 16. b4 cxb4 17. cxb4 Nc4 18. Bxc4 dxc4 19. d5 <A very good move in my opinion. It allows the queen to come strongly into play, while at the same time liquidating the center in White's favor.> exd5 20. Qxd5 Qe6 21. Qxe6 fxe6 <And here my heart sank into my chest. White has a far superior pawn structure, and also great squares for the knight.> 22. Bb2 Nb6 23. Ng5 <And here 23. Nd4 would have won the game. The e-pawn would be indefensible, and Black's game would quickly crumble.> Bxg5 24. hxg5 Nd5 25. Rac1 Rc8 26. Bc3 Rh5 27. f4 <A blunder in time control, deciding the game.> Ne3+ 28. Kg1 Nxf1 29. Rxf1 Rch8 30. Kg2 Rh2+ 31. Kf3 Rh1 32. Rf2 R8h2 33. Rxh2 Rxh2 34. a4 Rc2 35. Bd4 Ra2 36. a5 Ra3+ 37. Ke4 Rxg3 <White resigns, the ending is hopeless.> 0-1 If anyone has any analysis at all, I would love to hear it. |
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Nov-27-04
 | | tpstar: <PizzatheHut> Beautiful game! Both sides played very well, then you pulled it out in the late middlegame. I'm not so sure about 23. Nd4?! because Black has 23 ... Na4 winning 2 pieces for a Rook = 24. Nxe6 Nxb2 25. Nxe8 Rxe8 26. Rab1 Nd3 27. f4 b5 and the Nd3 rules the board. So I think 23. Ng5 was OK, although it left White with a bad Bishop versus your good Knight. Nice job! |
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| Nov-27-04 | | PizzatheHut: <tpstar> Thank you for the analysis. I don't know why I didn't consider 23...Na4, but you're right, it looks advantageous for Black. |
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