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| Mar-25-04 | | PaulKeres: very amusing <unsound>!! if it gets such a reaction, i might start playing it. I've got a similar reaction to 2.Nf3, I find Caro Kann players don't like this much either. But if I decide to play 2.d4 again so,
I shall remember 3. f3 =D |
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| Mar-25-04 | | Stavrogin: Another psychological blow is the one you can deliver by playing 2. d3 - as Tal made when winning beautiful against Smyslov. It might appear to slow you down too much, but that can be repaired just a few moves later when you, most often, can break open the center before black has been able to finish his development.
The centerdomination that follows, combined with a few natural attacking development moves often gives you the upper hand. Play through the Tal game if you are looking for entertainment! And play it yourself if you want to spice things up! |
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| Mar-25-04 | | PaulKeres: great <Stavrogin>, I shall try this as well, I love challenging the conservative Caro Kann players with out of book moves! |
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| Mar-25-04 | | square dance: what is the fantasy variation? |
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| Mar-25-04 | | Stavrogin: f3 is the fantasy variation. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | PaulKeres: great <Stavrogin>, I shall look into this. I personally have a very good record against the Caro Kann as well, which for the beauty of the game pleases me! I think the Caro Kann is prehaps the most defence opening I know. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | Stavrogin: It is one of the openings I most enjoy playing against, along with the french.
And when I am black I play the Caro-Kann myself, very often. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | square dance: <stavrogin> and at what point does f3 come into play? is it 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3? |
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| Mar-25-04 | | Stavrogin: Yes. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | ruylopez900: For those wondering the following is the Panov-Botvinnik Attack.... 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4. These are the moves that define the opening. Play usually continues Nf6, Nc3 With White looking to either exchange again on d5 or push c5. |
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| Aug-23-04 | | Dee Jay: Hey, anyone seen the Botvinnik-Carls? (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5!?) |
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| Aug-23-04 | | jmcd2002: <Hey, anyone seen the Botvinnik-Carls? (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5!?)> As a Caro player, I push 3...c5 almost automatically when I meet the advance in blitz. White usually responds with 4. c3, and I basically keep pointing pieces at d4/c5 (depending on white's moves, Nd7, Ne7-c6(or f5), Qb6 and Bg4 are all options). This both fights for d4 and seeks to undermine the e5 pawn (an f6 push can be helpful here, too). The king often stays in the center (e8, d7, or e7 - whatever is safest), and can become a nice pawn-eater after pieces are exchanged off and white's (castled) king is away from the fray. I think it is possible to castle on either side, but you must be very careful, especially on the kingside, where that e5 pawn can be really irritating by keeping defenders off of f6. I don't face 4. dxc5 much, but it has given me problems from time to time, even though I think it is less "correct." In correspondance games, though, my record with 3...c5 is not as good, and I've gone back to 3...Bf5. |
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| Aug-23-04 | | acirce: Interesting that you usually meet 4.c3, 4.dxc5 is much more common on GM level. How do you respond on that? |
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| Aug-23-04 | | jmcd2002: I usually respond with a setup that includes Nc6 and e6 (and usually Nge7). But I really don't know the theory. I do know that if I let myself get too caught up in fighting for the c5 pawn, I'll probably get crushed. |
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| Aug-23-04 | | dragon40: In the recent and not so recent past, I have tried the "more usual response" 3...Bf5 in answer to the Adnace Caro. But that move, at least for me, does not get me a very easy game at all! I have started to use 3...g6 quite a bit, and even though it usually makes for a much harder game or at least a more maneuvering struggle I am beginning to prefer it over 3...Bf5. The only issue is at times it can transpose into a Robatsch, which is not in my repetoire at all with the black pieces. I have played the Caro with the black pieces since my early High School days, and it is my staple against the E pawn, although I have recently used the classical French as well as the occasional Scheveningen Sicilian, I remain faithful to the Caro Kann when I really want to "play" or the game is important to me.
Lately in the Advance variation (Caro-Kann), I have encountered 1.e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 e6 5.g4 Bg6 6.Nge2 which is to my mind a very dangerous system for the black pieces to face! In fact, it was a couple diasterous games that had me to start looking at 3...g6 seriously!
<acirce> I have also tried 3...c5!? a few times and indeed found, at least in circles under the ranking of GM and IM that 4.dxc5 is almost always played. I usually respond to it by 4...Nc6, followed by 5...e6 and go for maximum development as White plans on how to keep that "extra" pawn of his. I tried 4...e6 a couple of times, since after 5.Be3! and neither of the two times I was faced with this move was I able to acheive a position I was fully at ease with. I did follow up 4...e6; 5. Be3 with 5...Nd7 and won the pawn back eventually, but I think the thought of "gambiting" that c pawn away so early in my mind, really affected my play.
I am also looking into odd 3rd moves like 3...Qb6 perhaps followed by 4...e6 or 4...Bg4 if White plays 4.Nf3, I havent decided yet. I will keep everyone posted and hopefully we can analyze some of these lesser used alternatives and see what comes out of them!
Thanks for all the input so far, it has been very interesting to see some of these variations and it is great food for thought! |
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| Aug-23-04 | | Dudley: <dragon 40> Your 3...g6 line also occurred to me, as I have an old book that recommmends that line as a main defense to 1.e4 or 1.d4 by White. 3...g6 is an attempt to transpose into a Gurgenidze line of the modern, which can also be played against 3.Nc3 in the main line. It works best when white moves f4 before Nf3, but is playable either way. I have tried it and it is usually a very closed type of game as you said. Fischer Petrosian 1970 was 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 g6 4.e5 Bg7 5.f4 h5 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.h3 Bxf3 8.Qxf3 e6 9.g3 Qb6 10. Qf2 Ne7 11.Bd3 Nd7 12.Ne2 O-O-O,with an eventual draw. Manion-Norwood 1992 is another example, but out of the Modern move order,and was regarded by Norwood as a prototype victory. This is pretty weird chess to me as I usually play more open lines resulting from the Caro or Sicilian, but it is guaranteed to confuse and frustrate your opponent. Of course, it might do the same to you! |
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| Aug-23-04 | | jmcd2002: I'll have to look into 3...g6. It sounds like it might fit my style. Does anyone have any other good example games to recommend? |
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| Aug-23-04 | | Dudley: I assumed Mannion-Norwood was in the database but it isn't so here is part of the game. 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 d5! (A move order trick. Black saves time by not moving his KB to g7 and then having to move it back to f8 again after the center gets locked up.) 5.e5 h5 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Be3 e6 8.h3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qb6 10.0-0-0 Nd7 11.Kb1 h4 12.Ne2 Ne7 13.Nc1 Nf5 14.Bf2 a5 15.c3 c5 16.dxc5 Bxc5 17. Nd3 Bxf2 18.Qxf2 Qxf2 19.Nxf2 g5 20.Bb5 gxf4 21.Nd3 0-0-0 22.Bxd7 Kxd7 23.Nxf4 Ke7 with "the dream position to reach from a Gurgenidze" White has a backward g2 pawn ,the e5 pawn is a permanent target, and all the potential pawn breaks are Black's. |
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| Aug-23-04 | | Helloween: Shabalov vs Igor Ivanov, 1993 is a Black win in a 17-move crush. 3...g6 murders Shabalov's over-optimistic play in this miniature. |
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| Sep-20-04 | | Knight13: Dose anybody know what's the purpose of playing Caro-Kann defence? |
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| Sep-20-04 | | suenteus po 147: <Knight13> Do you mean beyond the obvious: "Trying to win"? |
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| Sep-20-04 | | jmcd2002: <Dose [sic] anybody know what's the purpose of playing Caro-Kann defence?> For me, the purpose is that I get a solid, flexible, and (usually) semi-closed defence against 1. e4 that I generally know better than my opponent. More specifically, it aims initially at control of d5/e4, and often later pushes c5 to attack d4. Also, black's pawn structure usually stays solid going into the endgame. |
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| Sep-20-04 | | Knight13: <suenteus> What I am asking is 2...d5 3 exd5 cxd5, what's good with black's position? |
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| Sep-20-04 | | refutor: <what's good with black's position> lots of things. he traded his c-pawn for white's e-pawn which not only gives him a half-open c-file which he can use with his rook but positionally the e-pawn he has is better than the c-pawn. also if White plays the natural 4.c4 (panov-botwinnik) then it will be possible to saddle him with an isolated pawn, which is strong in the middlegame but weak in the endgame |
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| Sep-21-04 | | jmcd2002: <what's good with black's position?> refutor sums it up pretty well. interestingly, though, i usually get murdered in the Panov-Botvinnik and against the Caro - which I rarely see as white (since I'm usually a 1. d4/c4 player), this is what i play - as it can transpose into more Q-pawn-like positions. but at my level I very rarely see it. i also almost never face the exchange variation without c4 - which tells us something about its weakness. |
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