< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 27 OF 92 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: whatthefat: The fact remains that you cited Fischer's 3 year peak as 1970 to 1972, when Sonas cited it as 1971 to 1973. It's his rating system we're talking about. Let's look at this quote:
<The reason Fischer's overall 3 year peak includes an inactive year, is simply because he had no other sustained periods of brilliance in his career, unlike most of the other greats. And that's nobody's fault but Fischer's.> This brings up another point which I've made, but not as forcefully and directly. There is a difference between a player travelled on unlimited money, sponsored by the USSR, and a player who was poor (and that was what Fischer was before 1972) who only has the resources to compete directly for the world championship itself, plus occasional overseas tournaments. In fact, going back to your earlier list, this is a criticism of punishing some of the great champions of the past for not travelling to so many tournaments. They are being punished for the fact that a) not so many of these tournaments even existed as they do today b) for players such as Lasker - travelling to these tournaments could take a significant amount of time and expense which they sometimes couldn't afford c) some players felt it best to simply concentrate on the road to the championship itself. Petrosian certainly fits into this category, on his way up and even when defending the world championship. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: All this being said, let's devise another rating system of our own, as an alternative to Sonas's. It involves the following common sense principles: 1) Every rated game of chess played under professional tournament conditions should be 'weighted' the same as any other. (This is not to say that due to differences in ratings, some wins may not be more helpful to a player than others). 2) Only the games played matter - there is no mystical 'padding' factor.
More games in and of itself is not better.
3) The player should have played at least a minimal number of games. We don't take a guy who won 1 game and didn't play against for 5 years and call him the greatest ever. Any such system will find that in fact Fischer's run from 1970 to 1972 was the best there was. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: To clarify: Petrosian certainly fits into category (c) above: a player quite reasonably focused in his prime on competing for the world championship itself, and ignoring anciallary tournaments. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: In looking at the year 1973, whether we're talking 41 games or 44 (I'm not sure where the other 3 games are coming from) - throwing in 7 non-existant draws dilutes the result by
16 or 17 percent.
44 games is an awful lot, really. It's not some aberattion - Fischer is playing the very best players availble, taking the quickest yet toughest road to the world championship. Why is there a need to dilute 44 games
with 7 non-existant draws?
Answer: To give sombody else a higher place in the standings, that's why. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | whatthefat: <RookFile>
So basically you're just going to focus on his 3 year peak not being good enough, on account of him never playing well enough for 3 years in a row. The fact that his rating during all periods of activity is perfectly accurate will now be conveniently ignored... nice. I'd almost credit Fischer himself with the argument. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: I'm not sure what your're referring to whatthefat. I'm not here for example to say that Fischer should be rated the highest in 1985 or something when he's not even playing. By the way, I'm not sure what Fischer has to apologize for from the year 1970: Match vs Petrosian: Fischer wins 3 to 1
Rovinj/Zabreb tournament Fischer 1st place +10 -1 =6
Buenos Aires Fischer 1st place +13 -0 =4
Siegen Olympiad Fischer +8 -1 = 4
Palma Interzonal: Fischer 1st place +15 -1 =7
(Not included is Fischer winning Herceg Novi with +17 -1 =4) |
|
Jun-18-06
 | | Benzol: <keypusher> Many thanks. I wonder how other players would be regarded if they had stopped playing after triumphant moments in their careers. Would they be thought to be invincible? For example :
Lasker after St. Petersburg 1914
Capablanca after London 1922 or
Alyekhin after Bled 1931. |
|
Jun-18-06
 | | keypusher: <Benzol> <I wonder how other players would be regarded if they had stopped playing after triumphant moments in their careers. Would they be thought to be invincible? For example :
Lasker after St. Petersburg 1914
Capablanca after London 1922 or
Alyekhin after Bled 1931.>
Yes, or just think if Morphy had quit chess in 1859. We'd still be hearing about how he would have wiped the floor with Steinitz. Oh wait... |
|
Jun-18-06 | | ughaibu: Another RookFile argument bites the dust. Another Fischer legend crumbles with it. Fischer fans again expose themselves as unreasonable, biased and incapable of logical thought. Expected consequence: Fischer fans are so out of it that they'll be the only people not to have noticed or understood what has just transpired on this page. Fischer @#$%*&!# will continue to pollute chess's legends and general pyschosphere. Suggested solution: Cancel the "war" in Iraq. Attack Iceland and forcibly detain Fischer, force him to play down the present Elo list until he reaches a level where he can avoid being trounced. Publish the fact by notices in 72 languages nailed to every tree in the US. Mandatory 10 years hard for anyone who persists with legends after that. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | nikolajewitsch: <RookFile> Sure, you can develop your own rating system (although it is a lot of work, ask Mr.Sonas) following the guidelines you mentioned but: You will have to decide whether your system shall predict future results of players with best-possible precisison (as the one by Mr.Sonas). If yes, you will have to evaluate your formulas and adjust them to produce better predictions and then it will show that a little padding or a different way of taking the number of games into account serves quite well. If not, fine too, but then your rating system will always be somewhat arbitrary and its quality can not be compared to others. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: I see that nikolajewitsch is a rational person who makes good points. Elo, the guy who really invented these rating systems, was able to predict future results. For example, Elo called the result of Spassky vs. Fischer correctly, before the match was played. I see the problem with rating systems as one of combatting rating inflation.
As mentioned before, in large part, the players of the past get punished because rating systems such as Sonas's start with the assumption that all players are on a level playing field - therefore more games is 'better' and should be 'rewarded'. These systems do not consider that in the past:
a) not so many of these tournaments even existed as they do today b) for players such as Lasker - travelling to these tournaments could take a significant amount of time and expense which they sometimes couldn't afford c) some players felt it best to simply concentrate on the road to the championship itself, given the small resources they had. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | ughaibu: Back! Like a zombie from the tomb. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | Karpova: Gypsy: <In a typical Burn game, he survives opening with a worse but playable position. Then he defends throughout the middlegame and strikes back with one or two sorties. His pieces return just in time to cover the danger brewing around his king. This brings on a tour-de-force transition into an endgame -- and the transition itself is the finest aspect of Burn's play. Burn's play in the endgame is of a very high standard, but so often there is simply nothing much left to do, but give oponent enough time to examine the position and realise that it can be safely resigned. And if there is something left to do, Burn is usually up to the task.> This approach to the game could go terribly wrong when facing the best of the best: Burn vs Rubinstein, 1912
Capablanca vs Burn, 1911 |
|
Jun-18-06 | | euripides: If I read Sonas' results right, he didn't 'choose', as <rookfile> says, to leave out 1970; he compares all 3-year (Jan-Dec) average player ratings, and Fischer's average rating for 1970-2 simply wasn't as high. That's not surprising, since these are not performance ratings for the period, but player ratings based on the previous 4 years' performance; so a rating in January 1970 is based on games from 1966-69. To judge whether (to quote rook) <Fischer's run from 1970 to 1972 was the best there was>, you would need to calculate performance ratings for three -year intervals. That might be interesting; but it's not the question Sonas is asking. Sonas is asking roughly this: who, - on average, over a 3-year period, and based on the statistical information at the date of the game, was the strongest player ? - i.e. the player likely to score highest against his strongest contemporaries ? You can argue the merits of padding either way. <what the fat>'s numbers suggest that <rook>'s nasty insinuations about Sonas' motives - <To give sombody else a higher place in the standings, that's why> - are out of place. (Strictly, however, one should be looking at the number of games played in the 4-year window before the date of the rating). If Sonas found that the quality of his results (probably judged by the likelihood of the results based on the model) was improved by the padding, then it makes sense to do it. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | Inf: this is a petrosian page... petrosian not fischer!!! |
|
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: Inf is right - this is about Petrosian, and has gotten a little off track. To speak briefly of Fischer - from 1966 to 1969, Fischer rolled up a record of something like +74 -6 =28. There is nothing here for him to apologize for. I was looking at Petrosian, and there is something interesting. At one time, Zukertort used to be more highly rated than Petrosian, which can't be right because all Zukertort did was lose when it mattered. But in the latest revision by Sonas, Petrosian emerges ahead. I was encouraged to see this. What still remains are issues like Maroczy being rated higher than Petrosian, despite the fact that none of the tournaments Maroczy were as stacked as any of the 4 USSR championships Petrosian won. (To say nothing of the World Championship itself for which Petrosian won two matches). If you want to talk about 'weight's:
how's this for a common sense system:
4) Wins in world championsip play should be rewarded more than any other type of win. |
|
Jun-18-06
 | | keypusher: <nikolajewitsch> Rookfile develop his own ratings system? He'd have a better chance of developing his own cold-fusion reactor. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | RookFile: <keypusher: Rookfile develop his own ratings system? He'd have a better chance of developing his own cold-fusion reactor.> When you have weak arguments, ad homonien attacks work well. |
|
Jun-18-06
 | | chancho: A very happy Father's day to all the Dads out there. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | Karpova: well, cold-fusion reactors actually exist. it's just that they need more stream than they provide us with. but this could be another analogy... |
|
Jun-18-06
 | | Gypsy: <Karpova: ... This approach to the game could go terribly wrong when facing the best of the best... > Absolutely. It is a difficult style to play in, not for the faint hearted. I am amased that Burn was able to pull it off as often as he did and for as long as he did. (eg, Burn vs Alekhine, 1911) Comes to think of it, here is what Nimzovich has to say on the topic: <The number of great defenders is small. Author knows only the following names: Steinitz, Dr. Emanuel Lasker, Amos Burn, Dr. O.S. Bernstein, Duras, and not last Louis Paulsen ...> 'Praxis' (1928). Thanks for the Rubinstein game, btw, it is a magnificant endgame from Rubi. Breslau 1912 was Burn's last big tournament; he was 63 while the co-winners Rubinstein and Duras were both 29. After Breslau, Burn retired to writing. With a lifetime negative score against Lasker, Capablanca, Rubinstein or Duras; but also a lifetime positive score against Steinitz, Alekhine, Blackburne or Pillsbury -- Burn acounted for himself honorably. |
|
Jun-18-06 | | whatthefat: <RookFile et al.>
Just to put a nail in the coffin, I'd like to directly show you that the padding in no way disadvantages Fischer. Fischer's highest rating is 2895, in October, 1971. Linearly weighting the games of the last 4 years, this is derived (along with the padding games) from 74.7 weighted rated games, against a weighted average opponent of 2647.Meanwhile, Kasparov's highest rating is 2886, in March, 1993. This is derived (along with the padding games) from 94.4 weighted rated games, against a weighted average opponent of 2722. What I did now, is I took Sonas' formulae, and recalculated the ratings as they would be <WITHOUT padding>. That is, the padded formula:
Rating = 43+[(PR*n)+(AR*4)+(2300*3)]/(n+7), is replaced by Rating=PR. Calculating this, we yield:
<Fischer>
Padded rating: 2895
Unpadded rating: 2885
<Kasparov>
Padded rating: 2886
Unpadded rating: 2864
That's right, when padding is taken away, Kasparov's highest rating drops by 22; Fischer's by only 10. I believe the correct term is "0wned". |
|
Jun-19-06 | | whatthefat: Sorry, I'll have to admit that I have that backwards - padding <adds> 22 to Kasparov, and <adds> 10 to Fischer. Forget the "0wned"! In any case, it's a difference of a measly <12 points>!! As I've been telling you from the beginning, the effect is negligible once enough games are played. To quote Sonas directly:
"Before I go any further I just want to emphasize a very important point here. This system rewards players who play a lot of games. That's because there are always 7 "fake" games that provide the padding. If you play a lot of games, the 7 games don't have much effect on your rating. If you only play a few games, they can play a dominant role in your rating, as they should!" Both Fischer, and Kasparov (as well as basically any top active player), played enough games for the padding to become near irrelevant. <RookFile>, I hope that you'll finally acknowledge that you were wrong on this point. |
|
Jun-19-06 | | RookFile: I must be tired, whatthefat. Give some more detail about the calculation of the number 74.7 and 94.4. By the way, did you know that according to the USCF rating system, Fischer actually LOST a point as a result of his 6.5 - 2.5 win over Petrosian? His rating dipped drom 2825 USCF to 2824 USCF. Yes, I know it's a different rating system. The point is, I was a little surpised to hear the peak being listed as after the Petrosian match rather than after the Larsen match. |
|
Jun-19-06 | | bobo7up: To add to whatthefat's comments, calculating Fisher's performance rating for his match with Larsen by Sonas' formula gives the answer 2885 and not 2750 as Rookfile believes |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 27 OF 92 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|