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Oct-30-12 | | Boomie: Okay. That was overly optimistic. I can't find a way for white to break through. It's a blockade after all...sigh. Conclusion: b4 sucks as advertised. |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: <Boomie>: Well, it's not only b4. The mishap starts with 21. gxf5 apparently. |
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Oct-30-12 | | Lambda: <DcGentle> Not convinced we need to go that far just yet. I tried playing one of these lines out, blockade was steady at 1.31. Forced b3, c4 and opened the c-file, and for a while it looked like there was another blockade at 0.88. But then after sufficient grinding, scores suddenly leapt up to about 1.80, one, two, three all slightly different, starting with occupying the c-file. Looked like a breakage. (Didn't look any further though, so there might possibly be another fortress down the line, can't guarantee not.) Can't guarantee that it'll work against any defence of course, but we do still have a potential way in. Might come down to a question of which is more important, getting a pawn to h5, or having a good knight against a bishop trapped on h7? |
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Oct-30-12 | | adhitthana: Further to the line above I posted. Here is another line which may give a much faster win for white, as it interupts blacks attempt at a blockade. 20. Ne3 Rac8 21. Bd2 Kh8 22. Rg2 Bh7 (black tries to set up a blockade) 23. gxf5 Bxf5 24.Nxf5 exf5 25 e6 (forcing black to take)Qxe6 26.Re1
Now whites LSB will start to push black around.
 click for larger view
If black instead captures with the pawn at move 23. he quickly is in trouble too.
20. Ne3 Rac8 21. Bd2 Kh8 22. Rg2 Bh7 23. gxf5 exf5 24.e6 Qxe6 (again black needs to find a square for his queen) 25.Re2 Qe7 26.Bxf5 Bxf5 27.Nxf5 Qxf5 28.Qxf5 Rxf5 29.Rxe7
Surely black is lost
 click for larger view(disclaimer: results may vary):P |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: <<Lambda>: Might come down to a question of which is more important, getting a pawn to h5, or having a good knight against a bishop trapped on h7?> Could be. *hmmm* Maybe I'll have to look at that other position again... We should choose the objectively better one, which is the shorter and more forcing one ;-) |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: <adhitthana>: The idea to sac pawn e5 certainly helps, but in your line Black is not forced to retake with the queen, playing Qh5 at some point. I'll look into it. |
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Oct-30-12 | | Ceri: <DcGentle: <<Ceri>: I think that we are OK after Rc8 gxf5, though, because the silicon beasts are probably right about Rae8 being much better against gxf5. For that reason we need the immolisation plan for Rae8.>
Did you really crawl down that line? We'll lose the knight when trading pieces on f5 and then Black has created the f5 strong point that cannot be overwhelmed anymore. And engines want to play b4 locking down the queenside. But then, where is the breakthrough here, even if we don't do this. I am a bit worried now.> I did, on my faster machine. I can get at it tonight. imag had already been down that road first, I think.
Cheers,
Ceri |
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Oct-30-12 | | Ceri: <DcGentle:>
It was a rather fun game to play and I think that it looked a bit like this: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O Bg6
7. a4 Ne7 8. a5 Nf5 9. c3 h6 10. Nbd2 Be7 11. g4 Nh4
12. Nxh4 Bxh4 13. f4 f5 14. Bd3 O-O 15. Kh1 Qe8 16. Qc2 Kh7
17. Rg1 Be7 18. Nf1 Qf7 19. h3 b5 20. Ne3 Rac8 21. gxf5
Bxf5 22. Nxf5 exf5 23. Qe2 Nb8 24. h4 c5 (24... h5 25. e6
Qe8 26. Bd2 g6 27. Rg2 Na6 28. Rag1 Nc7 29. b3)
 click for larger view25. h5 c4
26. Bc2 Kh8 27. Rg6 Rc6 28. e6 Qe8 29. Bd2 Rd6 30. Bxf5
Rxf5 31. Qg4 Qf8 32. Rg1 Nc6 33. Rxg7 Rg5 34. Rxg5 hxg5
35. f5 Nd8 36. Rg3 Bf6 37. Kg2 Nc6 38. Bxg5 Bxg5 39. Qxg5
Ne7 40. Rf3
 click for larger viewCheers,
Ceri |
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Oct-30-12 | | Ceri: <adhitthana: <DcGentle:I am a bit worried now.> Is this the position you are worried about?
20. Ne3 Rae8 21. gxf5 Bxf5
The AT has nothing on 20.Ne3 Rae8 21.gxf5>
That is because we plan not to play gxf5 but Bd2 here. Cheers,
Ceri |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: <Ceri>: Despite the high eval for White 23.. Qe6 is an option for Black... *hmm* If Black is forced to play ... c5, it's not a real blockade. He wants to avoid this certainly. |
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Oct-30-12 | | kb2ct: <Boomie:>
Most blockades are illusions.
However the possibility is increased after his Pb5.
It means extra work because higher evaluations are not always best. Many times we might well have to play a lower evaluating line in order to make progress. It is a little disturbing that Rybka wants to play Pb4 so often. We have always to play out the pv to see if it leads to a win or a dead end. :0) |
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Oct-30-12 | | Ceri: Hi, Team.
This is not a proposed line, just me having fun besieging a fortress: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O Bg6
7. a4 Ne7 8. a5 Nf5 9. c3 h6 10. Nbd2 Be7 11. g4 Nh4
12. Nxh4 Bxh4 13. f4 f5 14. Bd3 O-O 15. Kh1 Qe8 16. Qc2 Kh7
17. Rg1 Be7 18. Nf1 Qf7 19. h3 b5 20. Ne3 Rac8 21. gxf5
Bxf5 22. Nxf5 exf5 23. Qe2 Qe6 24. h4 Rf7 25. h5 Nf8 26. b4
Bd8 27. Qg4 Qd7 28. Ra2 Qe6 29. Rag2 Kh8 30. Qh3 Rb8
31. Be3 Qd7 32. Bf2 Bc7 33. Bh4 Bd8
 click for larger view 34. Bg5 hxg5 35. fxg5
f4 36. Qh2 f3 37. Rf2 Ne6 38. h6 g6 39. Bxg6 Rf8 40. Bf7
Rxf7 41. g6 Bg5 42. Rxg5 Nxg5 43. e6 Re7 44. Qe5+ Kg8
45. exd7 Rxe5 46. dxe5 Rd8 47. Rxf3 Rxd7 48. Rf6 1-0
 click for larger viewCheers,
Ceri |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: <Ceri>: Cool sac, I like it. :-) Maybe it's the solution. |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: But this sac only works if the bishop can get to g5, so most likely the black bishop will stay put on d8... maybe it could be distracted. |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: I guess we have to create a sort of Zugzwang situation, where Black cannot fullfill his numerous obligations. Maybe this is possible. Looks like a study almost. ;-) |
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Oct-30-12 | | MikeB20: We probably shouldn't play b4 unless black capures on g4.
Even then, it is a good idea to keep options open on the Q-side, so there might be a better move. |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: I believe I got it. Stay tuned. :-) |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: Yeah, could be a study. Did I tell you that I helped create a real hard one? I friend of mine is an excellent study composer, he was awarded recently again. Sometimes he sends me his latest works to have them checked. Problem chess is poetry, tournament chess is prose.
:-) |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: I hope we can play this out, a game to remember. |
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Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: Rather long and now a perpetual is threatening. Nah.
Rolling back. |
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Oct-30-12 | | cormier: Oct-29-12 truefriends: JUST FOR YOUR INFO:
"Does <20.Ne3> force <20... fxg4>?" This is what <Critter_1.6a_64bit> thinks: 24/76 +0,57
20. ... fxg4 21.hxg4 |
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Oct-30-12 | | JustWoodshifting: <19.h3 b5 20.Ne3> Depth 25
Analysis by Deep Rybka 4.1 x64:
1. (1.05): 20...fxg4 21.Bd2 Bxd3 22.Qxd3+ Kh8 23.hxg4 Kg8 24.Raf1 Qe8 25.f5 Bg5 26.Rg2 Rf7 27.Nc2 Bxd2 28.Rxd2 c5 29.Rh2 Qe7 30.Ne3 cxd4 31.cxd4 Nf8 32.Qxb5 Qb7 33.Qxb7 Rxb7 34.Rc1 Rb3 35.Re2 Rd3 2. (1.12): 20...a6 21.Bd2 fxg4 22.Bxg6+ Qxg6 23.Qxg6+ Kxg6 24.Rxg4+ Kh7 25.Rag1 Rg8 26.f5 Rae8 27.h4 h5 28.R4g2 Bd8 29.b4 g6 30.Rxg6 Rxg6 31.Rxg6 Nf8 32.Rg1 exf5 33.Rf1 Ne6 34.Rxf5 Kg6 35.Be1 Be7 3. (1.24): 20...Rab8 21.Bd2 Kh8 22.Rae1 Bh7 23.gxf5 exf5 24.e6 Qh5 25.Kg2 Nf6 26.Nxf5 Rb7 27.a6 Rc7 28.Kh2 Ng4+ 29.Rxg4 Bxf5 30.Re5 Bxd3 31.Qxd3 Qe8 32.f5 Bd6 33.Bf4 Re7 34.Re1 Bxf4+ 35.Rxf4 Qb8 4. (1.27): 20...Rae8 21.Bd2 Bd8 22.gxf5[] Bxf5 23.Nxf5 exf5 24.b3 g6 25.c4 a6 26.cxb5 cxb5 27.Rac1 Nb8 28.Bb4 Rg8 29.Be2 Qa7 30.Rgd1 Rg7 31.Bf3 Qd7 32.Qc8 Bh4 33.Qxd7 Rxd7 34.Kg2 Kg7 35.Bd6 5. (1.34): 20...Rac8 21.Bd2 fxg4 22.Raf1 Bxd3 23.Qxd3+ Kh8 24.hxg4 c5 25.Qxb5 cxd4 26.cxd4[] Nb8 27.Rg2 Nc6 28.Qd3 Bb4 29.g5 Bxd2 30.Rxd2 g6 31.gxh6 Nxa5 32.Rg2 Nc6 33.Ng4 Ne7 34.Nf6 Rc4 35.Rfg1 Rfc8 6. (1.27): 20...Rad8 21.Bd2 Kh8 22.gxf5 Bxf5 23.Nxf5 exf5 24.b3 Qe6 25.Rg2 Rf7 26.c4 bxc4 27.bxc4 Rb8 28.cxd5 cxd5 29.Qa4 Nf8 30.Rc1 Bd8 31.Rc6 Qd7 32.Qc2 Ne6 Quite a difference between depths 22 & 25. |
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Oct-30-12
 | | Tabanus: <5. (1.34): 20...Rac8 21.Bd2 fxg4 22.Raf1 Bxd3 23.Qxd3+> So 21.Bd2 and 22.Raf1!? may be best. Needs checking. Rybka scores 21.Bd2 Kh8 worse? |
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Oct-30-12 | | kb2ct: It is avery fine line between a blockade and a zugswang in numerous lines where Pb4 is played. Chess engines often refuse to lower evaluations to make progress. I tried the concept in a line that I am very familiar with I am not sure that he could not be more stubborn.
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1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O Ne7 7. a4 Bg6
8. a5 Nf5 9. c3 h6 10. Nbd2 Be7 11. g4 Nh4 12. Nxh4 Bxh4 13. f4 f5 14. Bd3 O-O
15. Kh1 Qe8 16. Qc2 Qf7 17. Rg1 Kh7 18. Nf1 Be7 19. h3 b5 0 20. Ne3 Rae8 21.
Bd2 fxg4 22. hxg4 Bxd3 23. Qxd3+ Kg8 24. Raf1 a6 25. Rg2 Kh8 26. g5 g6 27. gxh6
Rg8 28. Rfg1 Kh7 29. b4 Bd8 30. Rg4 Ref8 31. R1g2 Be7 32. Be1 Bd8 33. Bf2 Be7
34. Bh4 Bxh4 35. Rxh4 Re8 36. Rhg4 Ref8 37. R2g3
 click for larger viewAnalysis by Rybka 3: depth 21 ply
1. (2.91): 37...Rf8-b8 38.Kh1-g1 Rb8-d8 39.Qd3-d2 Nd7-f8 40.Ne3-g2 Kh7-h8 41.Ng2-h4 2. (2.91): 37...Rf8-a8 38.Kh1-g1 Ra8-d8 39.Qd3-d2 Nd7-f8 40.Ne3-g2 Kh7-h8 41.Ng2-h4 :0) |
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Oct-30-12 | | stunningmove: Thanks <JustWoodShifting> based on your run, I predict 20... a6. Seems the perfect move for fortress building. We will see |
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