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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 469 OF 849 ·
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| Oct-30-12 | | hms123: <DPLeo>
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O Bg6 7. a4 Ne7 8. a5 Nf5 9. c3 h6 10. Nbd2 Be7 11. g4 Nh4 12. Nxh4 Bxh4 13. f4 f5 14. Bd3 O-O 15. Kh1 Qe8 16. Qc2 Kh7 17. Rg1 Be7 18. Nf1 Qf7 19. h3 b5 20. Ne3 Rae8 21. Bd2 Kh8 22. gxf5 Bxf5 23. Nxf5 exf5 24. Rg2 g6 25. Rag1 Rg8 26. b3 a6 27. c4 Qe6 28. cxb5 cxb5 29. Kh2 Ref8 30. Rc1 Nb8 31. Qc7 Ba3 32. Rc2 Rc8 33. Qb6 Qxb6 34. axb6 Rxc2 35. Bxc2 Nc6 36. Bd1 Nxd4 37. b7 Rb8 38. Bc3
Bc5 39. b4 Ba7 40. Rxg6 Rxb7 41. Rxh6+ Kg8 42. Rxa6 Rc7 43. Bd2 Nc2 
click for larger view<44. Be2 Bf2 45. Bxb5 Nd4 46. Ba4 Rg7 47. Bd1> 
click for larger view47...Rg1 48. Bh5 Nb3 49. Ra2 Rb1 50. b5 Nxd2 51. Rxd2 Be3 52. Rxd5 Bxf4+ 53. Kg2 Kg7 54. Be2 Rb2 55. Kf3 Bg5 56. Bd3 Rb3 57. h4 Bxh4 58. Kf4 Kf7 59. Rd7+ Ke8 60. e6 Be7 61. Kxf5 Kf8 62. Ke5 Ba3 63. Kd4 Be7 64. Kc4 Rb4+ 65. Kd5 Rb3 66. Kc6 * 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 1.5a w32: 22 ply
1.  (5.78): 66...Rc3+ 67.Kb7 Rb3 68.Rd5 Rc3 69.b6 Bc5 70.Kc6 Bxb6+ 71.Kxb6 Ke7 72.Bf5 Kf6 73.Rc5 Ra3 74.Kc6 Ke7 75.Kb7 Kf6 76.Kc8 Rb3 77.Kd8 Rb8+ 78.Rc8 Rb7 79.e7 Rxe7 80.Rc6+ Kxf5 81.Kxe7 Ke5 82.Rb6 2. (9.48): 66...Bh4 67.b6 Rc3+ 68.Kb7 Rc5 69.Rf7+ Kg8 70.Bh7+ Kh8 71.Bb1 Kg8 72.Bg6 Rc3 73.Bh7+ Kh8 74.Be4 Kg8 75.Rh7 Kf8 76.Rxh4 Ke7 77.Bf5 Kf6 78.Bg4 Re3 79.Kc6 Rc3+ 80.Kd7 Rd3+ 81.Ke8 Kg5 82.Rh3 3. (9.49): 66...Kg8 67.b6 Rc3+ 68.Kb7 Bg5 69.Bh7+ Kh8 70.Rf7 Rc5 71.Ka6 Bd8 72.Bb1 Kg8 73.e7 Ra5+ 74.Kb7 Bxe7 75.Rxe7 Rb5 76.Bg6 Rc5 77.Re6 Rc4 78.Kb8 Kg7 79.b7 Rc3 80.Ka7 Ra3+ 81.Ra6 Rb3 82.b8Q 4. (9.60): 66...Bg5 67.b6 Rc3+ 68.Kb7 Kg8 69.Bh7+ Kh8 70.Rf7 Rc5 71.Ka6 Bd8 72.Bb1 Kg8 73.e7 Ra5+ 74.Kb7 Bxe7 75.Rxe7 Rb5 76.Bg6 Rc5 77.Re6 Rc4 78.Kb8 Kg7 79.b7 Rc3 80.Ka7 Ra3+ 81.Ra6 Rb3 82.b8Q 5. (9.86): 66...Ra3 67.b6 Rc3+ 68.Kb7 Bd6 69.Rxd6 Ke7 70.Rd7+ Kxe6 71.Rd8 Ke7 72.Rd4 Ke6 73.Kb8 Ke5 74.Rd8 Kf6 75.b7 Ke7 76.Rd4 Rb3 77.Kc7 Kf6 78.b8Q Rxb8 79.Kxb8 Ke7 80.Kc7 Ke6 81.Rd6+ Ke5 82.Kc6 (hms123, 30.10.2012) |
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| Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: Oh well, here my latest bunker buster line.
It's fun and would work, but I dunno when Black would resign, and I don't want to play 102 moves. ;-) So it's only poetry in motion, I guess...
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 Nd7 6. O-O Bg6 7. a4 Ne7 8. a5 Nf5 9. c3 h6 10. Nbd2 Be7 11. g4 Nh4 12. Nxh4 Bxh4 13. f4 f5 14. Bd3 O-O 15. Kh1 Qe8 16. Qc2 Kh7 17. Rg1 Be7 18. Nf1 Qf7 19. h3 b5 20. Ne3 Rac8 
click for larger view21. gxf5 Bxf5 22. Nxf5 exf5 23. Qe2 Qe6 24. h4 Rf7 25. h5 Nf8 26. b4 Bd8 27. Qg4 Qd7 28. Ra2 Qe6 29. Rag2 Kh8 30. Qh3 Rb8 31. Be3 Qd7 32. Bf2 a6 33. Re1 Qe6 34. Kg1 Rbb7 35. Kf1 Rb8 36. Ke2 Kg8 37. Kd2 Kh7 38. Kc2 Kh8 39. Kb2 Kg8 40. Rg6 Nxg6 41. hxg6 Rf8 42. Qg3 Rc8 43. Rh1 Be7 44. Rh5 Ra8 45. Qh3 Qxg6 46. Rxf5 Rxf5 47. Bxf5 Qe8 48. Bd7 Qf8 49. Bxc6 Rd8 50. Qf3 Kh7 51. Bb7 Bxb4 52. cxb4 Qxb4+ 53. Qb3 Qxa5 54. Bh4 Rd7 55. Qc2+ Kh8 56. Qc8+ Kh7 57. Qxd7 Qb4+ 58. Kc2 Qc4+ 59. Kd2 Qxd4+ 60. Ke2 Qe4+ 61. Kf1 Qh1+ 62. Kf2 Qxh4+ 63. Ke2 Qxf4 64. Qxd5 Qg4+ 65. Ke3 Qg5+ 66. Kd3 Qg3+ 67. Kc2 Qg6+ 68. Kd2 Qb1 69. Qf7 Qb2+ 70. Kd3 Qb1+ 71. Ke2 Qb2+ 72. Kf3 Qc3+ 73. Kf4 Qd2+ 74. Kg4 Qg5+ 75. Kf3 h5 76. e6 Qg4+ 77. Ke3 Qg1+ 78. Ke4 Qg2+ 79. Kd3 Qg3+ 80. Kd4 Qg1+ 81. Kd5 Qg5+ 82. Kc6 Qg2+ 83. Kb6 Qg1+ 84. Kxa6 Qa1+ 85. Kxb5 Qb1+ 86. Kc6 Qc2+ 87. Kd7 Qa4+ 88. Kd8 Qd4+ 89. Ke8 Qe5 90. Qd7 Qf4 91. e7 Qb8+ 92. Qc8 Qe5 93. Qc2+ g6 94. Qe4 Qb2 95. Kd7 Qg7 96. Bd5 Kh8 97. Qf4 Kh7 98. Bf7 Qc3 99. Bxg6+ Kg7 100. Bb1 Qf6 101. e8=N+ Kg8 102. Qxf6 h4 103. Qg7# 
click for larger view |
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| Oct-30-12 | | achieve: <DcGentle: I guess we have to create a sort of Zugzwang situation, where Black cannot fullfill his numerous obligations.
Maybe this is possible. Looks like a study almost. ;-)> Bang on the nose on both counts. This is essentially what this team challenge is all about: once a few windows open, go in for the strangulation and kill, all the way to the resulting endgame. This game may offer that possibility. That's the real, and ultimate challenge, when you have a well functioning team, well organized in order to cover all angles.... Very tough, difficult, but this is where the human input reduces the high-end engines to "just" <suppliers of information>, to then be interrogated by strong and resilient human intellect, discussion, planning and intervention. Great to see!!
Keep at it! |
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| Oct-30-12 | | DPLeo: <hms123> Yes you and <g.mueller> have this one solved. Now we just have to be sure he doesn't lure us into any others. I think the win is here for us to find among many other lines that lead to a material advantage but no win. GMVA will try to lead us and/or our engines into one of these and we will just have to keep avoiding them until the win becomes forced. Quite a remarkable game so far. It's shaping up to be another world team game worthy of publication. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | blue wave: Well...I'm actually starting think white can win this game. I'm normally pretty reserved about such things, but I'm confident white can win this. It might drag on a bit but I'm sure we can win it. |
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Oct-30-12
 | | OhioChessFan: I have a request at the engine room for:
20. Ne3 Rac8 21. gxf5 Bxf5 22. Nxf5 exf5 23. h4
Can someone have a long look? |
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| Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: <stunningmove>: An immediate 20... a5 is possible, of course, we need a faster line to crack this stronghold. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | cormier: in this game untill now we've profit from his extentions to better communicate our post ... if he had played fast at every move our results would not be so good ..... communications in team contest is therefore better because of his slow play ..... we have learn a very good point and shoul remember it for futur games, tks G |
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Oct-30-12
 | | chrisowen: E3 arguably then, ditto in g4 over now in e8 again ye men in jack anyone dispute am in corroboration affable steed i see knowledge saw in e3 ke give l0 city and cinch eg in fxg look it enact in enter a8 to e8 energy be in f4xg5 hes undone on g6 back? |
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Oct-30-12
 | | Tabanus: <5. (1.34): 20...Rac8 21.Bd2 fxg4> So apparently Rybka sees something on 21...Kh8 that scores worse (for Black) than +1.34. Hope it's not a fortress. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: At least we rather closely know now what he is up to: Using Rybka 4 to set up a blockade position. We can prepare ourselves. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | cormier: how to remove g7&h6 adventageouslly ... kasparov chess tactic # .... |
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Oct-30-12
| | chrisowen: Namely it rooke8 in delicate balance over thick picking natural one b5 load for heaven us heading off queen up to f5 it peg in h3 every it hope in b5 and e3 i deem in atour amazing look it fetching in question it is ok tech in aim it i gate am in too mind for f5 it her in e6xf5 then einstein theory it now in h3xg4 i eon for heading off queeng6 in I shampoo it down in dig for exchange in d3 and g6 rook too good queens off tender i guerilla the plainly it mountain for black to climb after reign d5 pawn down yet in no time like white has to it frowing central one safe d4 and e5 to promote e8 in dread black engine coming apart in together evict orbit bind rookd8 in oh saw man tisking a tasking g4 or in g2 it is ok love really o to range light nd5 too overwhelming in my opinion claw back to b8 in get one idea belt rook across it a6 in tedious for highball it b5 b4 in almost goofy it we edifice in winding low as team in the driving seat rook ignoble in g4 and i flipflop in the ne3 or curious in watching for e8 to come howling over done in? |
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| Oct-30-12 | | benjinathan: <kwid> I have done that. But I want to read your ideas. I just was not sure what they were. b |
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| Oct-30-12 | | Robin Gitte: Voted Nh2, to be followed by a King march to b2 and an all-out kingside attack.
On a more serious note, I voted early for 19. h3 to keep its hopes alive against Ne3, not appreciating the human collateral damage of its winning. Worryingly, as a casual player, I've become a bit concerned that my vote might have some marginal effect. So next time there's a dispute, I'm going to follow the unsung hero and vote Team <Kwid>. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | kb2ct: <DcGentle:>
Don't confuse a blockade with a position that a chess engine can not solva In the line I posted this morning, Rybka needed human assistance at nearly every moveel Fortunately I had played Rybka at 48 hours per move earlier and I understood the posnition better than it did :0) |
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Oct-30-12
| | OhioChessFan: Thinking out loud.....Pawn moves are irrevokable. If the <only> thing we have to worry about is a fortress, maybe we should avoid gxf5. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | RandomVisitor: <JustWoodshifting>Are you running tablebases? If so, how many pieces? Thanks. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | kwid: Oct-30-12
<benjinathan:> <kwid> <I have done that. But I want to read your ideas. I just was not sure what they were.>
Thank you.
I have no records of this written expression of my thoughts brought on by a feeling of dismay. But after a cooling down period I decided not to say anything to dampen the current expressed exuberance at this time. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | Ceri: < Robin Gitte: Voted Nh2, to be followed by a King march to b2 and an all-out kingside attack. On a more serious note, I voted early for 19. h3 to keep its hopes alive against Ne3, not appreciating the human collateral damage of its winning. Worryingly, as a casual player, I've become a bit concerned that my vote might have some marginal effect. So next time there's a dispute, I'm going to follow the unsung hero and vote Team <Kwid>.> Kurt is, in my humble opinion, not always right; but he is always honest, unbiased and without emotional attachment to any one move or line. You could do worse, much worse, as a yardstick. Of course, there is always imag... Kurt and I go back about 10 years now.
He is a former cc IM (2485? if my memory is right) from the days before computers, when understanding of the game was paramount. Despite the fact that Kurt must by now be comfortably into his eighties, he has been gracious enough to take upstarts such as myself under his wing and to invest his time in convincing us of the value of both positional understanding and an open mind to the possibilities on the board. One of the highlights of my chess life was the suggestion by Kurt that I should make an assault on the ICCF title. Of course, I knew my limitations, so I did not. (Applause from my family!) Cheers,
Ceri |
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| Oct-30-12 | | benjinathan: <kwid> I think you should save them for the post game. That will be the time and place to discuss how it could have gone better (win or lose). I certainly have concerns about how h3 was selected, but it is best to save them to the end so as not to interfere with the ongoing process. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | DcGentle: <kb2ct>: I don't underestimate the engines, especially when it comes to tactical maneuvering, but the concept of a blockade is more positional, if you think about it. Essentially tactics are eliminated. Each party is confined to their own area. What should an engine evaluate there, which moves lead to better positions than others do? Difficult task from a viewpoint of an engine. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | MindCtrol9: Taking a look at the board,I see that all the fight is going to be focus on the King Side of the board.If engines choose <20.Ne3> I can not argue with them,but I consider that White pieces have better squares to prepare an attack than Black's.If we take a look at the Black Knight when is played <20.b4> what options it has and what counterplay on the Queen Side could possible be?I think,White must wait for the next Black move.I choose <20.b4> to close the Queen Side and concentrate everything on the King Side. |
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| Oct-30-12 | | Ceri: < MindCtrol9: Taking a look at the board,I see that all the fight is going to be focus on the King Side of the board.If engines choose <20.Ne3> I can not argue with them,but I consider that White pieces have better squares to prepare an attack than Black's.If we take a look at the Black Knight when is played <20.b4> what options it has and what counterplay on the Queen Side could possible be?I think,White must wait for the next Black move.I choose <20.b4> to close the Queen Side and concentrate everything on the King Side.> That's a good question, which should receive a good answer, which I hope that this is. IF you are certain that you can win K-side, then you should be entirely happy to close the Q-side. For example, had Black played fxg4 instead of b5, then I agree with you. Right now, I am absolutely unconvinced that we can win the game on the K-side, therefore I think we should retain the Q-side options by NOT playing b4. Of course, that is only my opinion.
Whle I was off at meetings and lunch I left a computer whirling away at a fortress position where b4 had been played. Its evaluations kept rising, but none of the variations hinted at a break of the fortress. In reality, to break a fortress, you usually have to accept a loss of material for some momentum, something that a computer will never do. Of course, you might, as might any one of our Team.
Cheers,
Ceri |
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| Oct-30-12 | | stunningmove: <kwid> much respect for you sir. Looking forward to some more analysis from you, especially given the positional nature of the game. Just as with <imag> coming back we need your expertise to break the walls he is contructing. Please don't think that a difference of opinion about a move or position means any less the <highest> level of respect from all of us! |
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