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Jul-18-20
 | | AylerKupp: <<SChesshevsky> It probably be a miracle if he wasn't both depressed and greatly fatigued throughout most of this game.> Fatigued perhaps, but depressed? I would think not. Why should he have been? After a long and difficult fight he had reached a theoretically drawn position after move 67.Kxf5, when even the material is even.
click for larger viewI would have thought that this would have made him very happy and not depressed at all. Even after 67...g3 when Geller realized that the move he likely intended to play, 68.fxg3+ was illegal, the move that he actually played, 68.f4 led to a theoretically drawn position, the same as 68.f3 would have, assuming that he had touched the f-pawn with the intention of playing 68.fxg3+ and realized at the last moment that the move would have been illegal but since he had touched the pawn he had to move it. Some have theorized that after 70...Ra1
click for larger viewGeller might have been <too> happy and was soooo relaxed that he might have thought that any move he played would lead to a draw. He was wrong, he picked the only move that lost, 71.Ke5. So if anyone might have been depressed it could have been Fischer, who had an advantage through most of the game, being a pawn up since 16...Qxd4, and could not convert it to a win without Geller's help. In that case Fischer might have taken a cue from Lasker and lulled Geller into a false sense of security. Which succeeded admirably in this case. Another piece of evidence for the truth to the maxim that the winner of a game is the player who makes the next to the last mistake. |
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Jul-18-20
 | | harrylime: Fischer owned the world back in 73 ...
so Flooooook Off
lol lol lol |
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Jul-18-20
| | AylerKupp: <<harrylime> In the then candidates cycle if Bobby wud have met Geller he would have whupped him 6 straight.> I would like to know how you arrived at that opinion. In 1970 Geller was rated at 2660 and ranked #4 in the world compared to Petrosian who was rated at 2650 and ranked #5 in the world. And Fischer was not able to whup Petrosian in 6 straight games, even (gasp!) losing a game. And Fischer's lifetime record against Petrosian was +11, =14, -4; a 62.1% scoring percentage <advantage>. Fischer's lifetime record against Geller was +3, =2, -5; a 40.0% scoring percentage <disadvantage>. Yes, by all means, please let us all know how you arrived at your opinion that, had Fischer and Geller met in the 1971 Candidates cycle, Fischer would have whooped Geller in 6 straight games. |
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Jul-18-20
| | AylerKupp: <beatgiant> Note that <Eggman>'s comment citing it was posted in 2003.> Yup, that should have been obvious to me had I stopped to think about it for at least a microsecond. Sorry about that. And the only valid source of that statement about considering an illegal move would have to be Geller, but none of us know if he was actually consulted or if it was someone else's opinion. But, even if he was consulted, what difference would it have made other than a BTW? At the time that Geller considered that illegal move he had a theoretical tablebase draw, and he also had one after he made a legal move in the same position. |
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Jul-18-20
| | AylerKupp: <<harrylime> This <<Kuupp>> character has serious issues re Bobby..> No I don't. I may have issues, but I don't consider them serious. Nor do I have serious issues with this <<harrilyme>> character. But I do like to base my opinions based on facts. What does he like to base his opinions on? |
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Jul-18-20
| | harrylime: <<AylerKupp: <<harrylime> In the then candidates cycle if Bobby wud have met Geller he would have whupped him 6 straight.>
I would like to know how you arrived at that opinion. In 1970 Geller was rated at 2660 and ranked #4 in the world compared to Petrosian who was rated at 2650 and ranked #5 in the world. And Fischer was not able to whup Petrosian in 6 straight games, even (gasp!) losing a game. And Fischer's lifetime record against Petrosian was +11, =14, -4; a 62.1% scoring percentage <advantage>. Fischer's lifetime record against Geller was +3, =2, -5; a 40.0% scoring percentage <disadvantage>. Yes, by all means, please let us all know how you arrived at your opinion that, had Fischer and Geller met in the 1971 Candidates cycle, Fischer would have whooped Geller in 6 straight games.>> lol lol
You don't get it .
You maybe never will. And that's cool .
Robert James Fischer is the greatest chess player that's ever lived . |
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| Jul-18-20 | | W Westerlund: I also find it very annoying.
For some Americans, "Bobby" is a neurosis.
Fischer was the best chess player in the world for a couple of years and he was WC for a couple of years. That was in early 1970s. Before, during and after, there was bloody insanity. If you do not accept that he did not defend his title because he was too afraid to lose, why then did he not defend his title?
The man was sick. |
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| Jul-18-20 | | jith1207: It's like saying <We are the greatest nation in the world>. It's a matter of pride.
Anyone trying to argue or asking logic in this pride like <Aylerkupp> is wasting their time here. Fanatics are best left alone. |
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Jul-18-20
| | harrylime: Wow !
lol lol
Bobby Haters UNITE
Fischer changed and revolutionised chess MORE THAN ANY BODY BEFORE OR SINCE . Sum folk just don't get it. |
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Jul-18-20
 | | perfidious: <jith1207....Fanatics are best left alone.> Nuff ced! |
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| Jul-18-20 | | SChesshevsky: <AylerKupp: Fatigued perhaps, but depressed?...> Of course he was depressed. After goofing the opening and going a pawn down by move 24 with pretty much zero compensation, who wouldn't be? Plus now he has to continue knowing he's always going to be worse and with one misstep it's over. Groveling for a hopeful draw for as long it takes against probably the most dangerous and brutal opponent at the time. A guy he knows is going to enjoy torturing him in this position. Even in the table base draw positions, Geller's position is worse with Black having all the play and potential. Goes back to the original post contention. That there's a big difference between a computer evaluation and one made at the board during suffering for about 50 moves. |
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Jul-19-20
| | perfidious: <SChesshevsky....That there's a big difference between a computer evaluation and one made at the board during suffering for about 50 moves.> Very clearly--the human element is something which seems to oft be forgotten in the haste to post computer analyses and intone, ' Old-So-and-So missed his chance', etc, on innumerable games. |
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| Jul-19-20 | | Granny O Doul: The Wade & O'Connell book was originally published in 1972 (before the Spassky match), and an updated edition shortly after. |
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Jul-19-20
| | AylerKupp: <<harrylime> You don't get it > Oh, I get it perfectly, and I have for a long time. But what I get has nothing to do with Fischer. I just like pulling your leg and showing you up on occasion by putting you in a position where the only thing you can think of saying to try to justify your inanities is repeating the same drivel over and over again. LOL, LOL, LOL, ... |
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Jul-19-20
| | AylerKupp: <<jith1207> Fanatics are best left alone. But what's the fun in that? |
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Jul-19-20
| | AylerKupp: <<SChesshevsky> Of course he was depressed. After goofing the opening and going a pawn down by move 24 with pretty much zero compensation, who wouldn't be?> Of course he had the right to be depressed in the early middle game. Although I would have thought that such an experienced and top-player should have been able to shake it off; after all, bad games sometimes happen to good players. But by the early endgame Geller had pretty much equalized and, even though since he was playing White and probably had higher expectations, he had still managed to come back from a worse game. That should have allowed him to overcome his early depression and he should have been feeling pleased with himself to do that, specially against the world's best player at the time. <Even in the table base draw positions, Geller's position is worse with Black having all the play and potential.> I don't think that was true towards the end of the game, but even if true, so what? He, Fischer, and other like-qualified players did not reach the top level by not being able to handle the pressure of occasionally being in an inferior position against another top-level player. And, FWIW, after 67.Kxf5 Stockfish 11 evaluated the resulting positions at d=63 as providing exactly even chances for both sides, [0.00]. And Komodo 12.3 MCTS, who supposedly evaluates positions in a more human-like way, at d=26 evaluated the resulting positions identically oat [0.00] following all Black moves. So these 2 engines do not agree that Black has all the play and potential after 67.Kxf5; White has equal chances because, after all, this is a game played between 2 human players. <That there's a big difference between a computer evaluation and one made at the board during suffering for about 50 moves.> Of course there is. All that a post game evaluation can tell you, whether done by a human or by a machine, is what <could> have happened, since we already know what did happen. And in a game between humans it is possible for them to be influenced by factors other than the position on the board. After all, the players are human. |
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Jul-19-20
 | | saffuna: I think top competitors in chess are able to concentrate on the current position and forget about any errors earlier in the game. They wouldn't be top players otherwise. |
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Jul-19-20
 | | HeMateMe: I think if Fischer had played in the '67 Candidates matches he would have lost to Spassky in the final. Spassky was the world's best player, and went on to beat Petrosian and become world champion. Fischer doubted his ability to stop his biggest rival, a guy he has a <minus> lifetime percentage against. That's why Bob sat out another three year cycle. |
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Jul-20-20
| | AylerKupp: <<HeMateMe> I think if Fischer had played in the '67 Candidates matches he would have lost to Spassky in the final.> I'm not so sure. In the unofficial 1967 FIDE rating list (prepared by Dr. Elo so I suspect that they were as accurate as they could be) Spassky and Fischer were both rated at 2670 and co-ranked #1. And Fischer was playing great chess since the second half of the 1966 2nd Piatigorsky Cup tournament when, starting at the half-way mark in Round 9, he scored 6.0/7 and caught Spassky for the lead on Round 16. He then scored 14-2-1 in the 1966 Olympiad in Havana, 8-3-0 (1st place) in the 1966 US Chess Tournament in New York, 6-2-0 (1st place) in 1967 Monaco, 12-3-2 (1st place) in 1967 Skopje, and had scored 7-3-0 in the 1967 Interzonal at Sousse before he self-destructed. Had he not done so he probably would have finished high in the standings at Sousse very likely qualified for the Candidates Tournament. Results for Spassky in that period were harder to find. He was very busy that year but his results were uneven. He did very well at the 1966 2nd Piatigorsky Cup, 5-13-0 (1st place), 1966 Olympiad Havana, 4-9-0, 1967 USSR Championship Sochi 10.0/15 (1st-5th places), 1967 Winnipeg, 5.5/9 (3rd-4th places), and 1967 Beverwijk Hoogovens (11.0/15 (1st place). But his other results were not as outstanding; e.g. 1967 Moscow, +4=11-2 (6th-8th places),, 1967 Budapest, 2.5/4 (6th-9th). And there were several other events I was not able to find. So I would say that his results, while certainly not bad, may not have been up to the level of a WCC Challenger. So I would think that Fischer's chances would be no worse then 50/50 for finishing ahead of Spassky and becoming Petrosian's Challenger in 1969. |
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| Jul-20-20 | | carpovius: <AylerKupp> Your comparative analysis of tournaments results is interesting but it doesn't look like a proof of 50/50 chances. By the end of sweet 60s Spassky was at his peak while Fisher still climbed. |
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Jul-20-20
| | harrylime: <<AylerKupp: <<harrylime> You don't get it >
Oh, I get it perfectly, and I have for a long time. But what I get has nothing to do with Fischer. I just like pulling your leg and showing you up on occasion by putting you in a position where the only thing you can think of saying to try to justify your inanities is repeating the same drivel over and over again. LOL, LOL, LOL, ...>>
I don't believe you.
YOU ARE A FISCHER HATER.
Play it on ere as you like ...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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Jul-20-20
| | HeMateMe: < And Fischer was playing great chess..> He was also playing great chess when Spassky created a record of +2, -3=5 record against Fischer. What good is playing great tournament chess if you can't beat your main rival? In 1968 Spassky was at his peak and would become world champion the next year. He was not playing his best chess four years later in 1972, was no longer at his peak. That should be obvious. Spassky publicly admits becoming disillusioned with the game and representing the Soviet Union. In a very close match I would predict spassky winning by one point, had they played a 1968 Candidates match to challenge Petrosian. |
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Jul-20-20
| | harrylime: <<HeMateMe: < And Fischer was playing great chess..> He was also playing great chess when Spassky created a record of +2, -3=5 record against Fischer. What good is playing great tournament chess if you can't beat your main rival?
In 1968 Spassky was at his peak and would become world champion the next year. He was not playing his best chess four years later in 1972, was no longer at his peak. That should be obvious. Spassky publicly admits becoming disillusioned with the game and representing the Soviet Union. In a very close match I would predict spassky winning by one point, had they played a 1968 Candidates match to challenge Petrosian.>> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-
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lol lol lol lol lol
Play another song sam |
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Jul-20-20
| | HeMateMe: what will happen first Harry?
1. England wins mens World Cup football
2. England has a mens' chess world champion?
3. John Lennon comes out of retirement for a Beatles reunion? |
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Jul-20-20
| | harrylime: <<HeMateMe: what will happen first Harry?
1. England wins mens World Cup football
2. England has a mens' chess world champion?
3. John Lennon comes out of retirement for a Beatles reunion?>> Or Travis Bickle wakes Ooooooooooooop lol lol |
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