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Jan-03-06 | | acirce: And on his way there he received a lot of "support from authorities". |
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Jan-03-06
 | | Eric Schiller: <square dance>I'll be specific only about one case, a tournament played in Hannover 1983, where one of the players told me he was embarrassed to be the last player to figure out that there was something funny going on, citing a game where Karpov easily beat Giorgadze, who was playing a certain QGD position for just the second time and, according to eye witnesses, didn't seem to be concentrating. That game isn't in the database. It was a long game, and there is no proof there was anything pre-arranged, but such allegations have surfaced. Of course, they are merely allegations. Pre-arranged draws were not unusual at the time (see I Zaitsev vs Karpov, 1966) but whether or not people in power during the Soviet era ever arranged decisive results remains a controversial topic in chess history. Most allegations just seem to be sour grapes from those finishing badly in a tournament. However, I was struck in this case because the GM had always seemed highly respectful toward Karpov and was berating himself for initially defending him "until it became so obvious". I wasn't there and don't have access to things like the amount of time used, but the claims of being pressured have surfaced many times. Unfortunately, serious research is difficult because any Googling winds up with Fischer's absurd claims about pre-arranged Karpov-Kasparov matches, and as one who had access to the inside of Kasparov's camp during these matches I know for a fact that nothing was pre-arranged. Perhaps one day a definitive history of chess in the Soviet era will be written and the facts will be known. We do know that the Soviet government manipulated things, but to what extent the World Champions themselves were involved will remain an open question, and subject of debate, for a long time. |
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Jan-03-06 | | veigaman: I have the feeling keres could have a super chess star but he was not able to reach that level because soviet authorities didnt allow it! |
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Jan-03-06 | | veigaman: In fact, i have thought keres changed his style of his early years for "kremlin recomendation"! |
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Jan-03-06 | | ughaibu: Keres was a "super chess star" for nearly 40 years. What on Earth are you talking about? |
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Jan-03-06 | | babakova: "I was unlucky, like my country."-- Keres |
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Jan-03-06 | | ughaibu: Hopefully a "definitive history of chess in the Soviet era" won't be more nonsense like Bronstein's "revelations" concerning Zurich and just lead to more myths and fantasies composing a larger portion of the heritage. |
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Jan-03-06 | | veigaman: keres could have been much much munch greater but i suspect he couldnt for external reasons!. I think Keres could have been a champion for more than 20 years but the war and later soviet authorities didnt allow it! |
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Jan-03-06 | | acirce: <veigaman> You sure have a wild imagination. |
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Jan-03-06 | | veigaman: Everybody is free to give his opinions and everybody is free to read them mr acirce! |
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Jan-03-06 | | hintza: He knows that as well as anyone. |
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Jan-03-06 | | square dance: <eric schiller> i appreciate the information. was it supposedly well known that karpov was the recipient of such favors? |
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Jan-03-06 | | WMD: <Perhaps one day a definitive history of chess in the Soviet era will be written and the facts will be known. We do know that the Soviet government manipulated things, but to what extent the World Champions themselves were involved will remain an open question, and subject of debate, for a long time.> To my mind, the best known candidate game is:
Kasparov vs Tal, 1987
As Bobby suggests, Kasparov should be interviewed in the presence of a lie detector machine. |
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Jan-03-06
 | | Eric Schiller: I don't see anything suspicious about the Kasparov-Tal game. I knew Tal and it would definitely be out of character for him to toss a game. In any case, if superstars were somehow involved in an arranged game, it would be easier to use a knockout TN, which would draw less suspicion. Kasparov didn't have need of such favors, he demolished opposition easily enough and at that time Tal wasn't considered a serious threat to any top player. Kasparov had handled him before without difficulty, see the 1980 Soviet Championship. Overall, Garry was 3-0 against him. And they had great mutual respect. |
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Jan-03-06 | | Akavall: <Eric Schiller> An unnamed GM making accusations, hmmm... This sounds VERY MUCH like Topalov - San Luis! |
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Jan-03-06 | | SnoopDogg: <acirce><<veigaman> You sure have a wild imagination.> Actually there is some truth to this. Keres was ordered to be executed (like Vladimir Petrov) by the Red Army after learning about Keres' support of the Germans "liberating" Estonia. However, Botvinnik saved his life by talking it over with Stalin and so Keres got to live. Those were facts, however, the rumor is Stalin agreed to Botvinnik's plea, but ordered him never to become World Champion. This is still disputed among historians. <The reason that Keres never played for the crown is shrouded in mystery. He participated in eight candidates events and came second in four of them. The turmoil of World War II and the annexation of his small country Estonia by the Soviet Union certainly played a role in keeping him from reaching the very top. Keres had participated in German tournaments during the war, and when the Red Army liberated the country, Soviet authorities planned initially to execute him. Botvinnik interceded by talking to Stalin and Keres was spared. Many experts assume that after the war the KGB applied pressure on Keres, since the Soviet government urgently required a pure-bred Russian to keep the prestigious title. When asked why he never became world champion, he replied: "I was unlucky, like my country."> http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
Also you may read another article explaining his games that were supposedly fixed at http://www.ishipress.com/keres-bo.htm |
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Jan-03-06 | | acirce: <Soviet authorities planned initially to execute him. Botvinnik interceded by talking to Stalin and Keres was spared.> More rubbish from Chessbase. How can anyone take their articles seriously? |
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Jan-03-06
 | | Eric Schiller: <Akavall>No, this wasn't an accusation of using outside help. It was a reaction to observed behavior. If I run into the GM and get his permission, I'd gladly name him. But only by talking to eyewitnesses can we get to the facts of this case. This GM told me that he was the only one to NOT believe the story, but was finally persuaded by everyone else plus the evidence of his own eyes. And he never claimed there was anything but circumstantial evidence. So Karpov must be presumed innocent. Of much more concern is the business with Gulko, and that still remains largely uninvestigated, except that it is clear that Karpov did nothing to ease Gulko's plight. |
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Jan-03-06 | | SnoopDogg: <More rubbish from Chessbase. How can anyone take their articles seriously?> Considering its the one of the most popular sites for chess news among fans and professionals, how can they not take their articles seriously? <acirce> Maybe I should have taken Chess Cafe's word, which respected/non-corrupt USCF officials run, instead :-). Here is the other side of the story by Taylor Kingston at chess cafe.com However, I haven't run into one source that disagrees that Keres was arrested and then dismissed of his crimes. So maybe quoting <the rumor is Stalin agreed to Botvinnik's plea, but ordered him never to become World Champion.> instead of <Soviet authorities planned initially to execute him.> to explain how chessbase is rubbish. <After the war Keres faced the threat of arrest, for
the crime (by Soviet standards) of having played in Nazi-organized
tournaments during the German occupation of Estonia. He was
under virtual quarantine during the investigation. Eventually he
was cleared, but he got no match with Alekhine, and was absent
from some major post-war tournaments.>
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kb1.txt
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Jan-03-06 | | veigaman: Time will say the truth!..." i was unlucky, like my country"... |
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Jan-03-06 | | Akavall: <Eric Schiller> I understand that you are not accusing Karpov, but just providing what you know, but <according to eye witnesses, didn't seem to be concentrating> This is talking about Giorgadze, right? Was Karpov concentrating? IMO, this statement is not a saying a whole lot. <And he never claimed there was anything but circumstantial evidence. So Karpov must be presumed innocent.> I agree with that, unless there is more evidence. |
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Jan-03-06 | | Akavall: <since the Soviet government urgently required a pure-bred Russian to keep the prestigious title.> It is my understanding that Botvinnik had Jewish background. I would have to second <acirce> here, <More rubbish from Chessbase. How can anyone take their articles seriously?> |
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Jan-03-06 | | WMD: <I don't see anything suspicious about the Kasparov-Tal game. I knew Tal and it would definitely be out of character for him to toss a game.> Well, let's ignore the apparent fact the several GMs were of the opinion that Tal indicated he had lost on purpose (which would suggest he wasn't over the moon about having to do so). The circumstances under which the game took place (Kasparov having to win to secure a share of first prize) make it more conceivable that Tal would have been pressured to throw the game. <In any case, if superstars were somehow involved in an arranged game, it would be easier to use a knockout TN, which would draw less suspicion.> Frankly, I couldn't disagree more.
<Kasparov didn't have need of such favors, he demolished opposition easily enough and at that time Tal wasn't considered a serious threat to any top player.> This was Tal's only defeat in the tournament, one in which he was only competing because Hübner had withdrawn after round 1. He was meant to be covering the event as a journalist. <Kasparov had handled him before without difficulty, see the 1980 Soviet Championship.> Beside the point, as my argument hardly rests on the notion that Kasparov was incapable of defeating Tal. And the 1980 game was not from the Soviet championship. I'm not sure what the event was though. I can't find it in the book Fighting Chess. <Overall, Garry was 3-0 against him.> Yes, that blitz game he won.
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Jan-03-06 | | WMD: <It is my understanding that Botvinnik had Jewish background.> Say what you mean. He was a Jew. |
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Jan-03-06 | | KingG: <Eric Schiller> I don't see how any of this makes Karpov any less great. The K-K matches where all very close, and when Karpov was demolishing Kasparov in their first match, Kasparov was already the top rated player in the world if i'm not mistaken. Not only that, but Karpov's amazing performance in Linares in '94 proved that he didn't need any outside help to win world class tournaments. IMHO, these two things are greater than anything Fischer ever did. Not to mention that Karpov was in the top two in the world for 23 years. That is absolutely unbelievable. I'm not saying that it's not reasonable to place Fischer as the second best player of all time(although i disagree), but to say that there is a huge gap between him and the rest doesn't make much sense to me unless you think there is an even bigger gap between Kasparov and Karpov. Your objections to Karpov seem to be based more on personal taste than anything else. I also disagree with <Karpov dominated competitively but has produced far fewer masterpieces at the board.>. Karpov has produced many masterpieces by anyone's standard, and in his long career, i'm sure he has produced more than Fischer did in his relatively short one. I'm sure you've already seen the following articles, but for anyone else who hasn't, Jeff Sonas published 4 articles on chessbase looking at various statistics to determine who the greatest player of all time was. http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
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