|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 16 OF 19 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| May-06-09 | | DanLanglois: 23. Qd2 a5 24. f4 b4 25. cxb4 Qxb4
19 ply 0.00 26.Qxb4 axb4 27.e5 Nd5 28.Be4 dxe5
29.fxe5 Rh5 30.Nf3 Rc4 31.Bd3 Rf4 32.Rde1 b3 33.a3 Ke7 34.Be4 |
|
| May-06-09 | | DanLanglois: <DanLanglois: Its not crystal clear 2 me> looking at it further, I might just have to give up on White's prospects there. But i'm stubborn enough to suggest another alternative: 24. Qd2 Nh5 25. <Qe3> Kg8 26. Nc2 Rg6 27. Red2 a5 28. a4 bxa4 29. Bxa4 d5 30. exd5 Bxd5 31. Qxc5 Rxc5 32. Ne3 
click for larger viewWhat about this endgame? |
|
| May-06-09 | | hms123: <GM Nickel> <DanLanglois> I just want to let you both know how much I am enjoying the continuing conversation about the game. |
|
| May-06-09 | | DanLanglois: I've no confidence in White winning that endgame, but perhaps: 28. a3 a4 29. Ba2 Qc7 30. Qe1 |
|
| May-07-09 | | Arno Nickel: # 08.
<DanLanglois: 23. ♕d2 a5 24. f4 b4 25. cxb4 ♕xb4
19 ply 0.00 26.♕xb4 axb4 27.e5 ♘d5 28.♗e4 dxe5
29.fxe5 ♖h5 30.♘f3 ♖c4 31.♗d3 ♖f4 32.♖de1 b3 33.a3 ♔e7 34.♗e4>
So, I understand, you think 25...♕xb4 is better than 25...axb4, which I had given in my comments.
An interesting try, but your line is not convincing to me. Instead of trading queens, White might just play 26.♕e3, and now...?
(Sorry I won't discuss your 24.♕d2 lines by now, but only later, when we have finished move 23.)
Best, Arno |
|
| May-07-09 | | RandomVisitor: <Arno Nickel>Thanks for your comments. I am busy today but in the next few day I will go over your analysis. |
|
| May-07-09 | | DanLanglois: <Arno Nickel>, I take it that White is still planning e5. 26...Ba6
27. Red2 Bb7 28. a3 Qc5 29. Re1 Nh5 30. e5 dxe5
So Black is ready 4 e5, here..
31. fxe5 Ng3 32. Qf4 Bd5 33. Rf2 no big deal(?), does White have better? |
|
| May-07-09 | | WinKing: <Arno Nickel: # 07a.
After 23.Qd2 Black may choose between:
I 23...a5 – counter attack at the queenside;
II 23...Kg8 – passive defence
III 23...Nh5– blockade at the kingside,
or various other moves, which all seem to be insufficient in order to achieve an equal play.>Very instructive. I am enjoying your analytical 'dissection' of this game. Looking forward to our next lesson. :) Never too old to learn! |
|
| May-07-09 | | DanLanglois: 31. fxe5, turns out to be pretty good for White, according to Rybka 3: 17 ply +0.44 31...Ng3 32.Qf4 Bd5 33.Bb3 Qe7
34.Bxd5 exd5 35.e6 Ne4 36.Rdd1 Rf6 37.Qxh4 Kg8 38.exf7+ Qxf7 39.Ka1 Re8 40.Rc1 Rf4 41.g4 hmm..my original impulse had been to play 26...a4, this was why 25...Qxb4. Then (26...a4) 27. a3 Qa5 28. Qd2 Qxd2.
I shied away from this when Rykba spat out 28. Nf3 Rxc2 29. Kxc2 Bxe4+ 30. Kc1 but why not? |
|
| May-07-09 | | YouRang: <GM Nickel> Just wanted to say that I greatly appreciate you taking the time to post analysis on our game. It's very illuminating. :-) |
|
| May-07-09 | | DanLanglois: 23. Qd2 a5 24. f4 b4 25. cxb4 Qxb4 19 ply 0.00 26. Qe3 a4 27. a3 Qa5 28. <e5> seems to be the last loose end. After 28...Nd5 29. Qf2 dxe5 30. fxe5 Kg8 31. Nf3 Rh5 32. Red2 Qb5 33. Ka1 Qc5 34. Qxc5 Rxc5, queens exchanged, we have equality(does White have better?). |
|
| May-07-09 | | DanLanglois: 17 ply +0.48 32.Rd4 Qb6 33.Red2 g6 cld be a problem.. |
|
| May-08-09 | | blue wave: Thanks for you study of the game. I don't feel I have much to offer in the analysis. I do remember though that at a certain point, perhaps move <22...Nf6>, I felt it would have been suicidal to proceed with pushing for a Queenside attack with idea's of <...b4> or <...a5>. I didn't feel that Black had enough time to do this. All my searches over the board failed to find any hope of endangering Whites king. I felt that White would cement their grip on the centre of the board which already felt very solid. I can't speak for the team, but at this point, I seemed to switch to defensive thinking in a BIG way. This is one of the reasons I think <22....Nf6> was played to strengthen our Kings defence. It was the start of a change in strategy. Many, including myself were afraid of our <e6> pawn being the target for a brilliant attack. This explains why we played <..Rh6> and <..Re8> in a prophylactic defence. This however felt like giving up our hoped for attack on the Queenside. In many ways I think many on the team felt this violated the true spirit of a fighting Sicilian game. I can't argue with that. But personally I think we would have lost if we decided push for a win by Queenside expansion. |
|
| May-08-09 | | DanLanglois: I've tried a couple of 26th moves, not liking the result. How about: 23. Qd2 a5 24. f4 b4 25. cxb4 Qxb4 26. Qe3 <Rh5> 27. a3 Qc5 28. e5 Nd5 29. Qf3 Rh6 30. Ba4 dxe5 31. fxe5 White is in relative disarray this time. 31...Qb6 32.Rc2 Rc7 33.Rxc7 Qxc7 34.Qe2
White's efforts have had no effect
34...Qb6
click for larger view |
|
| May-08-09 | | DanLanglois: <But i'm stubborn enough to suggest another alternative: 24. Qd2 Nh5 25. <Qe3> Kg8> perhaps not 25...Kg8 maybe 25...Rg6. I'm just not able to crack the 24...Nh5 line, which means, 24. Qd2 doesn't particularly work. |
|
| May-08-09 | | crazymate: I enjoyed our game and hope later you get time to look over some of our mating solutions and the interesting ideas in the 1000+ pages of kibitzes.. I would have played e6 rather then d6 at move 3. crafty at low ply agrees somewhat that d6 is worse. e5 is computer choice for move 3.
at the time of the vote though.. there was a great many votes split between Nf6 e6 and e5. So d6 happened to squeak a win. this happened many times where a good move was overrided by rybka and team voting blocks. Analysis by Crafty 20.14 w32:
1. = (0.21): 3...e5 4.Bb5 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.d3 Be7 7.Nd5 0-0 8.Nxe7+ Qxe7 9.Bd2 Nd4 10.Nxd4 cxd4 11.c3 2.  (0.38): 3...Nf6 4.Bb5 e5 5.Bxc6 dxc6 6.Nxe5 Nxe4 7.Nxe4 Qd4 8.0-0 Qxe5 9.Re1 Be6 10.Ng3 Qd4 3. (0.58): 3...e6 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.Bxc6 dxc6 6.d4 Be7 7.0-0 cxd4 8.Nxd4 e5 9.Nf3 Qxd1 10.Rxd1 Bg4 |
|
| May-08-09 | | Arno Nickel: # 09.
Hi everybody, thanks all for your comments. It's nice to know so many enjoying the review of our game, and this forum is really great for this prurpose.
For now I like to keep very close to the discussion about 23.♕d2 and the latest suggestion. It seems to me, this move is unchallenged so far. The last try was a new proposal against 26.♕e3:<DanLanglois: I've tried a couple of 26th moves, not liking the result. How about:
23. ♕d2 a5 24. f4 b4 25. cxb4 ♕xb4 26. ♕e3 <♖h5>
27. a3 ♕c5 28. e5 ♘d5 29. ♕f3 ♖h6 30. ♗a4 dxe5 31. fxe5 White is in relative disarray this time.
31...♕b6 32.♖c2 ♖c7 33.♖xc7 ♕xc7 34.♕e2
White's efforts have had no effect.>
However, your line has a serious defect, as 30.♗a4? should be replaced by 30.f5! with clear advantage for White (may be almost winning).
click for larger view |
|
| May-08-09 | | DanLanglois: ack ! |
|
| May-09-09 | | RandomVisitor: <Arno Nickel>Concerning the proposed move 23.Qd2, Perhaps you have seen this posting in my forum from December 2, 2008 - I did a dump of my current analysis each time we had a new move, because it was easier that way and I tried other methods but I was spending too much time documenting things: <Section D - 23.Qd2, thanks ajile> [+0.34] d=23 23...Kg8 24.f4 Nh5 25.Ree1 Ng3 26.Nf3 d5 27.e5 Rh8 28.Ng5 Rh5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.a3 a5 31.Bd3 Rh5 32.Red1 a4 (6:59.30) [+0.34] d=22 23...Nh5 24.f4 Kg8 25.Nf3 d5 26.Ree1 Ng3 27.e5 a5 28.Qd4 Rc6 29.Qxb6 Rxb6 30.Rd4 Kf8 31.a3 Ba6 32.Ng5 [+0.34] d=22 23...Kg8 24.f4 Nh5 25.Nf3 d5 26.Ree1 Ng3 27.e5 a5 28.Qd4 Rc6 29.Qxb6 Rxb6 30.Rd4 Kf8 31.a3 Ba6 32.Ng5 [+0.35] d=22 23...a5 24.Qe3 Nd7 25.Nb3 Qc7 26.Bd3 Rh5 27.Nd4 Qb6 28.Nxb5 Rxb5 29.Bxb5 Qxb5 30.Rxd6 Bc6 31.Red2 Ne5 32.Qf2 Be8 33.Rd8 Rxd8 34.Rxd8 a4 (3:57.38) |
|
| May-09-09 | | RandomVisitor: The broad analysis of white's choices at move 23 can be found here: click the link then scroll down until you see Dec 2 on the left. User: randomvisitor |
|
| May-09-09 | | RandomVisitor: <Section A - 23.Bb3> [+0.33] d=27 23...Re8 24. Qe3 Qc5 25. Bc2 Nh5 26. Red2 Ng3 27. Bb3 [+0.34] d=25 23...Re8 24.Qe3 d5 25.e5 Nh5 26.Ree1 Ng3 27.Bc2 Kg8 28.a3 Rc8 29.f4 a5 30.Nf3 Qxe3 31.Rxe3 Bc6 32.Rd4 Nf1 33.Re1 Ng3 34.Bd3 Rb8 (65:49.48) [+0.36] d=24 23...Qc5 24.Qe3 Re8 25.Bc2 Kg8 26.Nb3 Qc7 27.Qd4 Rd8 28.e5 Nd5 29.exd6 Rxd6 30.Re5 Bc8 31.Qc5 Qxc5 32.Nxc5 f6 33.Ree1 Rc6 (45:38.23) [+0.39] d=24 23...Rc5 24.Qe3 d5 25.Bc2 Rc8 26.e5 Nh5 27.Bd3 Ng3 28.Red2 Kg8 29.a3 Rh5 30.f4 Rh6 31.Qf2 Qc7 32.Nf3 (49:06.49) [+0.42] d=24 23...Rh5 24.Qe3 d5 25.e5 Nd7 26.Qf4 g6 27.Bc2 Kg7 28.Bd3 Qc7 29.Rde1 Re8 30.Bc2 Qb6 31.Re3 Qc7 32.Ka1 Qd8 33.R3e2 Qc7 (56:44.36) <After 23.Bb3 Re8>
[+0.35] d=25 24.Qe3 d5 25.e5 Nh5 26.Bc2 Ng3 27.Ree1 Bc8 28.Qf4 Bb7 29.Bd3 Kg8 30.Rd2 Rb8 31.Nb3 Rc8 32.Rc2 Rh5 (26:23.02) [+0.34] d=25 24.Qd2 Qc7 25.Qe1 Rh5 26.Bc2 g6 27.Nb3 Kg7 28.f4 e5 29.f5 gxf5 30.exf5 Rc8 31.Red2 d5 32.Re2 e4 33.Nd4 (23:41.19) [+0.25] d=24 24.Rf2 Rh5 25.Qe3 Qc7 26.Re2 Kg8 27.Bc2 Qb6 28.a3 (12:40.19) [+0.25] d=23 24.Red2 Rh5 25.Qe3 Qc7 26.Qe1 Kg8 27.Re2 g6 28.Red2 Kg7 29.Qf2 Qc5 30.Bc2 b4 31.cxb4 Qxb4 32.a3 Qc5 (6:04.56) _____________________________________________
<Section B - 23.Qe3> <[+0.33] d=28 23.Qe3 Kg8 24.f4 Rh5 25.g4 hxg3 26.e5 dxe5 27.fxe5 Ne8 28.Qxg3 b4 29.cxb4 Qxb4 30.Qg4 Rh6 (30:37.37)> [+0.31] d=25 23.Qe3 Kg8 24.Bb3 Rd8 25.Qf2 Nd7 26.Red2 Ba8 27.Bc2 Rc8 28.Qe2 Rf6 (31:04.14) [+0.36] d=24 23...Kg8 24.Nf5 Qxe3 25.Nxe3 Ne8 26.e5 dxe5 27.Rd7 Bc6 28.Ra7 Ra8 29.Rxa8 Bxa8 30.Rd2 Bc6 31.Rd8 (13:29.22) [+0.40] d=23 23...Qc5 24.Qd2 Qc7 25.f4 Nh5 26.Nf3 (9:30.31) [+0.47] d=24 23...Qc7 24.f4 Qc5 25.Qd2 d5 26.e5 Ne4 27.Qe1 Ng3 28.Rf2 g6 29.Bd3 Kg7 30.a3 Rhh8 31.Nf3 Qe7 32.Rc2 (20:11.36) _______________________________________________
<Section C - 23.Red2> [+0.29] d=25 23.Red2 Qc7 24.Qe3 Kg8 25.Bb3 Qc5 26.Nc2 Ne8 27.Qe2 Rb8 28.Nd4 (42:30.35) [+0.28] d=25 23...Qc7 24.Qe3 Kg8 25.f4 Qb6 26.Re2 Qc5 27.Qd2 Nh5 28.e5 Ng3 29.Ree1 dxe5 30.Rxe5 Bd5 31.Bb3 Be4 32.Ka1 Qb6 (29:37.53) [+0.39] d=25 23...Rh5 24.Qe3 Qc7 25.Re2 Kg8 26.f4 Qb6 27.g4 hxg3 28.e5 dxe5 (36:09.11) _______________________________________________
<Section D - 23.Qd2, thanks ajile> [+0.34] d=23 23...Kg8 24.f4 Nh5 25.Ree1 Ng3 26.Nf3 d5 27.e5 Rh8 28.Ng5 Rh5 29.Rc1 Rh6 30.a3 a5 31.Bd3 Rh5 32.Red1 a4 (6:59.30) [+0.34] d=22 23...Nh5 24.f4 Kg8 25.Nf3 d5 26.Ree1 Ng3 27.e5 a5 28.Qd4 Rc6 29.Qxb6 Rxb6 30.Rd4 Kf8 31.a3 Ba6 32.Ng5 [+0.34] d=22 23...Kg8 24.f4 Nh5 25.Nf3 d5 26.Ree1 Ng3 27.e5 a5 28.Qd4 Rc6 29.Qxb6 Rxb6 30.Rd4 Kf8 31.a3 Ba6 32.Ng5 [+0.35] d=22 23...a5 24.Qe3 Nd7 25.Nb3 Qc7 26.Bd3 Rh5 27.Nd4 Qb6 28.Nxb5 Rxb5 29.Bxb5 Qxb5 30.Rxd6 Bc6 31.Red2 Ne5 32.Qf2 Be8 33.Rd8 Rxd8 34.Rxd8 a4 (3:57.38) |
|
| May-09-09 | | Arno Nickel: Thank you <RandomVisitor> for the 23.♕d2 lines from Dec 2, 2008. Worth noting is the reply 24.f4 to Black's 23...♔g8 or 23...♘h5, while Rybka favoured 24.♕e3 in case of 23...a5. The reason for giving the tempo 23.♕d2/24.♕e3 may be seen in the weakening of the b5-pawn. Yet in my new analysis I followed f3-f4 as the basic plan, and I found that Rybka 3 would agree after a deeper thought, when sliding through the f4-lines. By the way, thanks also to <blue wave> for your instructive survey of the team's psychological background around the move 22....♘f6 as the "start of a change in strategy", followed by "prophylactical" moves like ....♖h6 and ....♖e8. I completely agree to your final assessment "I think we would have lost if we decided push for a win by Queenside expansion". I have to confess, such an 'expansion' had been one of my secret hopes. |
|
| May-09-09 | | RandomVisitor: Digging through my notes, at the time I was tracking Rybka's top 3 white moves, which were: [+0.33] d=26 23.Bb3 Re8 24.Qe3 d5 25.e5 Nh5 26.Ree1 Ng3 27.Bc2 Rb8 28.f4 Bc8 29.Nf3 a5 30.Qxb6 Rxb6 31.Rd4 Ba6 32.f5 (53:56.25) [+0.31] d=25 23.Qe3 Kg8 24.Bb3 Rd8 25.Qf2 Nd7 26.Red2 Ba8 27.Bc2 Rc8 28.Qe2 Rf6 (31:04.14) [+0.29] d=25 23.Red2 Qc7 24.Qe3 Kg8 25.Bb3 Qc5 26.Nc2 Ne8 27.Qe2 Rb8 28.Nd4 (42:30.35) <23.Qd2> was not one of the top 3, so I was not presently looking at it. I assigned 1 machine to each of the top 3 to dig deeper. <ajile> provided me some analysis on 23.Qd2, which I assembled and posted with my other analysis. |
|
| May-09-09 | | RandomVisitor: <p.s.
At least, recently I succeeded to "increase" my ICCF rating to 2641, which means place 28 in the world rankings.>Congratulations. I can only now understand the difficulties and challenges of correspondence chess. |
|
| May-11-09 | | DanLanglois: <DanLanglois: I've tried a couple of 26th moves, not liking the result. How about: 23. Qd2 a5 24. f4 b4 25. cxb4 Qxb4 26. Qe3 ..> 26...Ba6 27. Red2 Kg8
click for larger viewI don't see how White organizes something here. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 16 OF 19 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
