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| Jul-26-05 | | The Careful Cat: Dec-05-04
drukenknight
...Bc5 the answer to Ponziani?
The line you give...
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Bc5
4. b4 Bb6
is ok but I saw a note somewhere that Steinitz had suggested the posibility of 4. Nxe5! intending after 4...Nxe5 the fork by 5.d4. My source said that no-one had ever tried it so I gave it a whirl and thought "They have now!" Just one second , I'll find the game...
The Careful Cat - victor732001
Game 236796 Stan's NetChess, 01.03.2004
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Bc5 4.Nxe5 Nxe5 5.d4 Bxd4 6.cxd4 Ng6 7.Nc3 d6 8.Bd3 Nf6 9.0-0 0-0 10.f4 c5 11.Bc2 Bg4 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.f5 Nh8 14.e5 dxe5 15.dxe5 Ne8 16.Rd1 Qe7 17.Qxd7 Qxe5 18.Bf4 Qxf4 19.Nd5 Qd6 20.Qxd6 Nxd6 21.Ne7# 1-0 Victor is not a bad player his Record: 144-57-10 Wins Losses draws. I must have caught him on a bad day, or baffled him with the little known Ponziani :-). Bye.
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| Jul-26-05 | | DanRoss53: <The Careful Cat> I've faced 4. ♘xe5 (as Black) in online play and have responded 4... ♗xf2+ 5. ♔xf2 ♘xe5 6. d4 ♕h4+ 7. ♔g1 ♘c6 which seems to favour Black. |
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| Nov-27-05 | | ongyj: <azaris> A very interesting game indeed. Seems that White has chosen to give Black the chances while holding on a rock solid position and wait for Black to blunder. Indeed it's very difficult to identify the mistake on Black's part, in fact I think the opening was very well played on Black's part though I'll like to recommend an alternative move 18...Bf5!? which threatens the seemingly destructive 19...Nc2!. (I'll like to point out that my playing strength is unlikely to be better than either of the participants of this very game though, so please correct me of my hindsight.) White's Queen seems too out of place and the likely outcome would be a dominating position by Black. I feel that Black was over-anxious to trade materials, even to the extent of losing the edge of the superior position. 20...Bf5!? seems to threaten to gain even more material as compared to 20...e4 which simply forces more exchange. (Also, I think for White King on f2 after the series of exchanges may be even good for White, having the King in a centralised position for the endgame.) Finally, I think Black was over-impatient in the endgame and created too many holes for White to exploit. Towards the end stage, every piece of White was in a dominating position, whereas Black was reduced to passive defence. Not sure if 35...Bf7 could save the game... That's all I can offer. Hope to be corrected thanks. |
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| Nov-27-05 | | azaris: <ongyj> Thanks for the comments. Yes, 20...e4 did not work so well, but was played for the reason I gave in an earlier kibitz. I don't think it's possible to save the game after 24.Nb5, most of the moves are forced and the bishop pair is murderous. |
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| Dec-03-05 | | ongyj: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c4!? Why hasn't anyone been looking at this seriously before? While White may be suffering from an enclosed White Bishop, White is working on the long abstract idea of a Queenside pawn advancement. Home someone will enlighten me on this thanks. |
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| Feb-26-06 | | The Careful Cat: Hi DanRoss53
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Bc5 4.Nxe5 4...Bxf2+ 5.Kxf2 Nxe5 6. d4 Qh4+ 7.K g1 Nc6 Not having played any games with this (either colour) it is hard for me to say who has the best of it but... I like White's pawn centre and his two bishops in an open position. The open f-file may prove useful also. OK the WK "looks" strange but I can't see an immediate problem for him. On the contrary I expect him to get safer over the next 5 or 6 moves and to free his Rh1 from the corner. Fritz "says"
8. Qf3 d6 9. Be3 Nf6 10. Nd2 Ng4 11.
Bf4 O-O 12. h3 Nf6 13. Be2 Nd7 14. Rf1 Nb6 15. Kh2 *
And White has a big advantage 0.78
Bye for now
TCC
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| Mar-19-06 | | drukenknight: More fun in POnziani. Hey Carefulcat, that STeinitz idea of the fork I am using too. That fork idea comes out of some famous Philidor's games; you can also play it out of certain siclians. I will try to link to the original fork later. Here a couple ponziani games from a day or two ago having to do with an early ...d5: Here's the first one, the guy didnt play ...Nf6 and it completely messed up my timing: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 d5
4. Bb5 dxe4
5. Nxe5 Qd5
6. Bxc6+ bxc6
7. d4 exd3
8. Nxd3 Qxg2
9. Kd2 Be6
10. Kc2 O-O-O
11. Rg1 its horrible, 0-1.
So I go to chesslab and find out how its supposed to go: 1 e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 d5
4. Bb5 dxe4
5. Nxe5 Qd5
6. Qa4 (of course how stupid to forget this move, answering a Q move with a Q move is also pretty obvious) This position was played a lot in the old days. Showalter (white side), burn, tchigorin (black side), tartakover, shredder 7 (white); falkbeer, harrwitz (white), anderssen (black side); zukertort. ALl of them have played from this position. Here is simlar idea, the black Q gets there a move later due to the ...Nf6 move: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Nf6
4. Qa4 d5 (there are 23 games in the chesslab database including 3 Alkehine games w/ him as black; there must have been a lot of interest in this opening in the early 20th cent. 5. Bb5 (would you believe this is a novelty! but why? it is given as a book position im my old MCO book) 5....dxe4 (…Bd7 recommended)
6. Nxe5 Qd5
7. Nxc6 Bd7
8. Nd4 Bd6
9. Bxd7+ Nxd7
10. Na3 Be5
11. Qc4 Nb6
12. Qxd5 Nxd5 (advantage white)
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| Mar-19-06 | | drukenknight: Caarefulcat: here is one of the older examples of this fork, here it is black doing the fork out of a philidor's defense. you can find this fork out of all sorts of openings. Suetin vs Gusev, 1950 |
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| Mar-20-06 | | drukenknight: Hot off the presses, here is another Ponziani meets Philidor's. I like this because black got through the opening fine w/ ...Be7 at the right time and I have to settle for doubled d pawns, but his QN comes unstuck... 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 Nf6
4. Qa4+ Nc6
5. Bc4 (aparently a novelty, 10 games in the chesslab base got to blacks 4th) 5...Be7
6. Bd5 (crap pc recommends 00 but that looks boring)
6... Bd7
7. Qc2 O-O
8. d4 exd4
9. cxd4 Nxd5
10. exd5 Nb8
11. O-O Bb5
12. Re1 Re8
13. Nc3 Ba6
14. Ng5 g6 (14 ...Bxg5 I think is possible 15 Bxg5 f6, going from memory here) 15. Nce4 c6
16. Qc3 cxd5
17. Qh3 Bxg5? (17...h5 is necessary)
18. Bxg5 dxe4
19. Bxd8 Rxd8
20. Rxe4 and 1-0
we are getting a nice collection of ponziani/philidor miniatures, etc. in here.. |
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| Mar-26-06 | | drukenknight: Do you see why I hate these lunatics playing on the internet? NOw they are starting to play that duffer's move...Bc5 on my Ponziani. THey are probably reading all my notes to this as well. Here goes, try to play these moves quickly so you wont unnerstand it: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Nf6
4. Qa4 Bc5
5. Bb5 O-O
6. Bxc6 dxc6
7. d4 exd4
8. cxd4 Bb6
9. e5 Nd5
10. O-O Re8
11. Nc3 Bg4
12. Bg5 f6
13. exf6 Nxf6
14. Ne5 Qxd4
15. Bxf6 gxf6
16. Nxg4 Qxa4
17. Nxa4 f5 and 1-0
Okay probably several mistakes, it's confusing to find them because they are sort of non-intuitive at first glance. I mean we play with one idea in mind, like "when ahead exchange", but then the board gets messed up and these ideas no longer make sense. |
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| Mar-31-06 | | drukenknight: Hey carefulcat and Danross; Here is one of those Steinitz Forks Meets the Bishop sack. It's really fun: 1 e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Bc5
4. Nxe5 Bxf2+
5. Kxf2 Nxe5
6. Be2 Qf6+
7. Bf3 Ne7
8. Re1 d6
9. g3 Be6
10. d4 (these moves might have been reached by a transposition it's hard to recall the exact move order but the position is right) 10...Nxf3
11. Qxf3 O-O
12. Kg2 Qg6
13. Bf4 Bg4
14. Qe3 Qh5
15. h4 Rae8
16. Nd2 f5
17. e5 Nd5
18. Qf2 Nxf4+
19. Qxf4 dxe5
20. dxe5 h6
21. Qc4+ Qf7
22. e6 Qe7
23. Rad1 Rf6
24. Nb3 Bxd1
25. Rxd1 Rxe6
26. Nd4 Rd8
27. Nxf5 Rxd1
28. Nxe7+ Kf8
29. Qxe6 g5
30. Qxh6+ Kxe7
31. Qxg5+ Kf8 and 1-0 fun huh? |
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| Jun-20-06 | | FICSwoodpusher: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 pxp 4. Bb5 ...
I have tried playing this opening a few times in blitz games. Are there any lines that are not a transposition to the Ruy Lopez? or any transpositions that favour white? |
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| Dec-27-06 | | Haeron: I played an interesting miniature recently on Playchess in 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Qe7?! [Event "Friendly Game, 11m + 0s"]
[Site "Café"]
[Date "2006.12.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Haeron"]
[Black "Guest397014"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C50"]
[WhiteElo "1406"]
[EventDate "2006.12.27"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Qe7
4. O-O Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. d4 exd4 7. Nxd4 Nxd4 8. Qxd4 Bg7 9. Bg5 c5 10. Qe3 h6
11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Nd5 Qd6 13. e5 Bxe5 14. f4 f6 15. Nxf6+ Qxf6 16. fxe5 Qe7 17.
Bf7+ Kd8 18. e6 dxe6 19. Rad1+ Kc7 20. Bxg6 Rg8 21. Rf7 Qxf7 22. Qe5+ (22. Qe5+
Kb6 23. Rd6+ Kb5 24. Bd3+ Ka4 25. Rd4+ Ka5 26. Qxc5+ b5 27. Qxb5#) 1-0 I know that my play could be improved, but does anyone have any experience in this opening? |
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| Feb-13-07 | | drukenknight: Another insane Ponziani meets phildors, I sack two B for 4ps but somehow manage to win. This one has the early ...Be7 theme along with ...Na5 slapping the Q, so this opening seems to based on sound tactics... The challenge here is to find out the last possible chance to save this for black, of course 23...Bh6 is good but there is stuff later. 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Be7
4. Bc4 d6
5. Qb3 Nh6
6. d4 Na5
7. Qa4+ c6
8. Bxh6 (Bd3 or Be2=) gxh6
9. dxe5 b5
10. Bxf7+? (Bxb5+ better) Kxf7
11. Qc2 Bg4
12. Nfd2 dxe5
13. O-O Rg8
14. b4 Nc4
15. Na3 Nxa3
16. Qb3+ Nc4
17. Nxc4 bxc4
18. Qxc4+ Be6
19. Qe2 Qc8
20. Qh5+ Rg6
21. Qxe5 Bf6
22. Qc5 Rg5
23. Qe3 Qg8 (...Bh3 maybe enough to win)
24. g3 h5
25. f4 Rg4
26. f5 Bd7
27. e5 Bg5
28. e6+ Ke7
29. Qc5+ Kd8
30. exd7 Bf6
31. Qxc6 Rxg3+
32. Kh1 Ke7
33. Rae1+ Kf7
34. hxg3 Rd8
35. Qe6+ Kg7
36. Qxg8+ Rxg8
37. Re8 Kf7
38. Rxg8 Kxg8 and 1-0
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| Feb-14-07 | | drukenknight: the 4...a6 ponziani. ...a6 is playable but I think you first have to play ...h6. Here it doesnt seem to work, a good one to remember: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Nf6
4. Qa4 a6
5. Bc4 Nxe4 (alternatives?)
6. Bxf7+ Kxf7
7. Qxe4 d6
8. d4 Be7
9. dxe5 Nxe5
10. Nxe5+ dxe5
11. O-O Bd6
12. f4 Re8
13. fxe5+ Kg8
14. Bf4 Bc5+
15. Kh1 Be6
16. b4 Bd5
17. Qe2 the crap pc has about four different choices here but it looks bad for black |
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| Feb-27-07 | | drukenknight: Ponziani v Philidors, here is a good example of how to use h pawn, a pawn and the Q w/o the Ns to cover the Q/B battery attack, this is pretty good for 23 moves or so: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 a6
4. Bc4 h6
5. Qb3 Qf6
6. d4 b5
7. dxe5 dxe5
8. Bd3 Nc6
9. a4 bxa4
10. Rxa4 Bd6
11. Bb5 Bd7
12. Rxa6 Rxa6
13. Bxa6 Nge7
14. Be3 O-O
15. Na3 Na5
16. Qd1 Be6
17. b4 Nac6
18. Bb7 Nxb4
19. O-O Nbc6
20. c4 Bxa3
21. Bxc6 Nxc6
22. Qa4 Bg4
23. Nd2 and he pulled the B back to dd6 and cut off the defense of the N, amusing to play it out: Ba3-d6 24. Qa4xc6 Qf6-g6 25. c4-c5 Bg4-h3 26. g2-g3 Bh3xf1 27. c5xd6 c7xd6 28. Kg1xf1 Qg6-e6 29. Qc6-c4 Qe6-h3 30. Kf1-g1 Qh3-g4 31. Qc4-c6 Qg4-e6 32. Nd2-c4 Rf8-c8 33. Qc6-d5 Qe6xd5 34. e4xd5 Rc8xc4 35. Kg1-g2 f7-f6 36. Kg2-f3 Kg8-f7 37. Kf3-e2 Kf7-e7 38. Ke2-d3 Rc4-a4 39. h2-h4 Ke7-d7 40. Kd3-c3 Kd7-c7 41. Kc3-b3 Ra4-g4 42. Kb3-c3 Kc7-b7 43. Kc3-d3 Kb7-a6 44. Kd3-c3 Ka6-b5 45. Be3-a7 Rg4-c4 46. Kc3-d3 Rc4-d4 47. Ba7xd4 e5xd4 48. Kd3xd4 Kb5-b6 49. Kd4-c4 g7-g6 50. f2-f3 f6-f5 51. g3-g4 f5xg4 52. f3xg4 h6-h5 53. g4-g5 Kb6-c7 54. Kc4-b5 Kc7-d7 55. Kb5-b6 Kd7-e7 56. Kb6-c7 Ke7-f7 57. Kc7xd6 Kf7-e8 58. Kd6-e6 Ke8-f8 59. d5-d6 Kf8-e8 60. d6-d7 Ke8-d8 61. Ke6-f6 Kd8xd7 62. Kf6xg6 Kd7-e7 63. Kg6-g7 Ke7-e6 64. g5-g6 Ke6-f5 65. Kg7-f7 Kf5-g4 66. g6-g7 Kg4xh4 67. g7-g8=Q Kh4-h3 68. Qg8-g1 h5-h4 69. Qg1-e3 Kh3-h2 70. Kf7-f6 h4-h3 71. Qe3-e2 Kh2-g3 72. Qe2-e3 Kg3-g2 73. Qe3-e2 Kg2-g3 74. Qe2-f1 h3-h2 75. Qf1-h1 Kg3-h3 76. Kf6-f5 Kh3-g3 77. Kf5-g5 Kg3-h3 78. Kg5-f4 Kh3-h4 79. Qh1xh2 |
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| Feb-27-07 | | drukenknight: How to mess up the ponziani, one problem white runs into is when the black Q becomes active, it seems obvious now what white's mistake is, but didnt at the time,good one to think about... 1. e2-e4 e7-e5 2. Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 3. c2-c3 Ng8-f6 4. Qd1-a4 Bf8-e7 5. Bf1-c4 O-O 6. Nf3-g5 d7-d5 7. e4xd5 Nf6xd5 8. Bc4xd5 Qd8xd5 9. Ng5-f3 Bc8-d7 10. Qa4-c2 e5-e4 11. c3-c4 Qd5-f5 12. Nf3-g1 Be7-c5 13. Ng1-h3 Qf5-g6 14. Nh3-f4 Qg6-g5 15. d2-d4 Nc6xd4 16. Qc2xe4 Rf8-e8 17. Nf4-e6 Qg5xc1 0-1 |
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| Mar-03-07 | | drukenknight: The answer to those pesky people who play ...Bc4 vs Ponziani (see careful cat discussion above). The Philidors Defense in Reverse! This is brilliant, okay the original idea of the romantic openings was theattack on f7, but then philidor came along and created the stong pt defense around e5. So then Ponziani stopped playing the romantic Spanish and Italian and created a Q/B battery. Now some players e.g. careful cat are counterattacking w/ ...Bc5. here is the basic move order
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Bc5 ..would you believe Sam Lloyd and his father 1855 were first to reach this? Marcozy, Lowenthal Staunton played at least one game of this. Lowent/Stanton played an 1857 corr. game. 4. Qc2 ...okay this is the novelty that I think is best way to deal with the break out move ..d5 and subsequent Q moves. Giving up on the Q/B battery approach... 4...Nf6 ..Crum/ Jenkin Glasgow 1878 was first to reach this via different move order, only 8 games in data base 5. d3 O-O
6. Bg5 right out of the text book for philidor players to pin the N, but I am playing it as white! 6...d5
7. Nbd2 a5 (there is at least one Alkehine game where he begins a q side advance vs. philidors) 8. Be2 ..Now look what white has achieved he has the ideal position of philidors w/ pawns on c3/d3/e4; the QN has gone to d2 which was the way philidor played in the old days, the Q is on c2. Now this defense is very formidable and white is playing it w/ a move in hand! 8....Ng4
9. Bxd8 Bxf2+
10. Kd1 Ne3+
11. Kc1 Nxc2
12. Kxc2 Rxd8
13. exd5 Rxd5
14. Raf1 Be3
15. Nc4 Bh6
16. Nfd2 Bd7
17. Bf3 Rc5
uhhh, okay wait a minute here, I think there is something I left out. |
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| Mar-11-07 | | get Reti: I've had good success against jester with 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. Qc2. It's been played 101 times on chessbase. I like it because it protects the e4 pawn, so you now have two advaced pawns instead of one. |
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| Jun-13-07 | | WarmasterKron: Here's an idea I had today for the Scotch Gambit, of which I have found no information regarding. 1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.d4 exd4
4.Bc4 f5!?
I suppose the idea is that after 5.exf5, Black can play 5...d5 and 6...Bxf5, which seems ok. |
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| Jun-13-07 | | sneaky pete: <WarmasterKron> Very original and probably new, but is it good? I like white's game after 5.exf5 d5 6.Bd3 Bxf5 7.Bxf5 .. but the real test is 5.e5 .. when black has only compromised his king's side and impeded his queen's bishop. After 5.e5 d5 both 6.exd6 Bx6 7.0-0 .. and 6.Bb5 .. look promising. |
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| Jun-13-07 | | WarmasterKron: Is it good? I've no idea! I've yet to put it to a proper practical test; it's very much in the early stages. Bxf5 is an obvious blunder after 6.Bd3, so it's probably better for Black use the gain of time on the bishop to develop. I suspect you're right that 5.e5 is the greatest test, so some work on that is needed. |
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| Jul-27-07 | | valuim97: I think that an good opening would be the Taylor's(the name I found at Chessmaster). 1.e4 e5 2.♘f3 ♘c6 3.♗e2!?
That would be an improvement at 3.d3, because of 3...d5. One line: 1.e4 e5 2.♘f3 ♘c6 3.♗e2 ♘f3 4.d3 d5 5.♘bd2 ♗c5 6.00 00. |
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| Jul-28-07 | | valuim97: I found other name(the one you found at Wikipedia) Inverted Hungarian Defense |
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| Nov-08-07 | | Robert James: Hello,
About ponziani, i played this game recently. It was a 15min game and i was black. Im quite a patzer and i thought if one of you could check it out and maybe give some comments. I think i was defending the whole game, but luckily my opponent ran out of time. How could black play for attack and initiative? I dont like my play, its too passive, but i always end up playing like this. Thanks. 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c3 Nf6
4. d3 d6
5. Be2 Be7
6. 0-0 Bg4
7. Be3 Bxf3
8. Bxf3 0-0
9. Nd2 b6
10. d4 Nb8
11. dxe5 dxe5
12. Nc4 Nbd7
13. a4 c5
14. Bg5 h6
15. Bxf6 Bxf6
16. Nd6 a5
17. Bg4 Qe7
18. Nb5 Nb8
19. Qd5 Ra6
20. Rad1 Rd8
21. Qc4 Nc6
22. Rxd8+ Qxd8
23. Rd1 Qe7
24. Rd7 Qf8
25. Nd6 Ra7
26. Rxa7 Nxa7
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