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| May-04-05 | | Mating Net: This question is for all of my fellow Alekhine's Defense devotees. We've been discussing the Exchange Variation and the merits of Black recapturing with 5...cxd6 or 5...exd6. There is another option for Black, 5...Qxd6. There are 5 games in the database with his move, 2 draws and 3 wins for Black. Admitedlly not a large sample, but interesting nevertheless. Has the recapture 5...Qxd6 been refuted somehow? At first glance the Queen seems to be safe from undue enemy pressure on d6. What are your views on 5...Qxd6? Is it playable? Check out
Kashdan vs Fine, 1945
R P Michell vs Flohr, 1935
for a couple of examples in this line. |
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| May-04-05 | | suenteus po 147: <Mating Net> I'm sufficiently intrigued by your suggestion. I'll start adding 5...Qxd6 to my repetoire and let you know how it turns out. |
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| May-04-05 | | fgh: Mating Net: Well, 5. ... Qxd6. I used to play that move in the past, but I later stoped to play it. I don't remember exactly the reason, but it was probably because I often got passive positions. 5. ... cxd6 and 5. ... exd6 are much better, from my own experience. |
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| May-04-05 | | AgentRgent: Regarding 5...Qxd6, I don't like the look of 6. c5 Qe6+ 7. Be3 Nd5 8. Bc4. |
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May-04-05
 | | Eric Schiller: <on 5...Qd6> I think it works better without the knight in the middle of the board. I have played 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8!? (I prefer the Brooklyn Retreat line) 3.d4 d6 4.exd6 Qxd6, reaching the Scandinavian ...Qd6 lines (compare 1.e4 df5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd6 4.d4, where both ...c6 (my choice) and ...a6 (Bronstein's choice) are available. |
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| May-05-05 | | AgentRgent: <Eric Schiller: 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8> The Brooklyn is an interesting way to get to the Scandinavian. But, as a means of dealing with the Exchange variation, it's like cliping daisies with a chainsaw, since it pretty much rules out playing Alekhine's Defense. ;-) |
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May-05-05
 | | keypusher: <agentrgent> 6 c5 Qe6+ 7 Be3 Nd5 8 Bc4 Nxe3 9 Qa4+ Qd7 |
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| May-05-05 | | AgentRgent: <keypusher: 6 c5 Qe6+ 7 Be3 Nd5 8 Bc4 Nxe3> 9. Bxe6 Nxd1 10. Bxc8 Nxb2 11. Bxb7 |
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May-05-05
| | keypusher: <AgentRgent> Oops! You are right, I am wrong. |
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May-14-05
| | keypusher: A really enjoyable game:
tpstar - keypusher [B02]
GameKnot, 04.2005
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.c4 Nb6 4.d4 d6 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Bd3 (foregoing an opening advantage, I think) e5 7.d5 Na6! 8.Ne2 f5 9.Nbc3 Kf7? (Eccentricity for eccentricity's sake.) 10.b3 Nc5 11.f4?! (Just 0-0 is better) Qh4+ 12.g3 Qh3 13.Kf2? (Fritz likes Be3 better, with equality) Nbd7 14.Ng1 Nxd3+ 15.Qxd3 Qh5 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Be3 Nc5 18.Bxc5 e4 19.Qe3 dxc5 20.Nge2 Bd7 21.Rag1 h5? (losing most of black's advantage.) 22.h4! Qa6 23.a4 Qa5 24.Rd1 Bd6 25.Ng1 Rhe8 26.Nh3 a6 27.Ng5+ Kg6 (Again, eccentricity for eccentricity's sake, although I had some vague justifications) 28.Ncxe4? (It seems to me that white should try to set up g4 here) Rxe4? (Fritz says ...fe was playable after 29 f5+ Kh6!) 29.Nxe4 fxe4 30.f5+ Kf7 31.Qxe4 (funny would be 31 Qg5 Be7? 32 Qxh5+ Kg8 33 g4?? Be8, but stronger for black is 31...Qc3! 32 Qxh5+ Kg8 33 Qg4 Bxf5!) Qc3! 32.Qd3 Qxd3? (I was eager to reach the endgame in the mistaken belief that it was an easy win, but the bishops would have showed to better advantage with the queens on) 33.Rxd3 Bxf5 34.Rf3 g6 35.Re1 Re8 36.Rfe3 Rxe3 37.Rxe3 Be7 38.Ke1 Bf8 (After thinking for a long time, I decided to try to force the rook off the e-file so I could get the king to d6) 39.Kd1 Bh6 40.Re5 Bg7 41.Re1 Bc3 42.Re3 Bd4 43.Rf3 Ke7 44.Kd2 Kd6 (Mission accomplished, but now what?) 45.Rf1 Bb2 46.Re1 Bd7 (Much stronger is 46...Be5 47 Re3 Bd4 48 Re2 Bg4 49 Rg2 Be5 50 Rg2 and with the rook passive, black can march his king to b4, winning) 47.Rf1 Be5 48.Rf3 b5 49.axb5 axb5 50.Rd3 Bf5 (now the plan is to drive the rook off the third rank) 51.Rf3 b4! 52.Kc1 Bd4 53.Kd2 Bg4 54.Rf8 (54 Rf1 Be5 55 Rg1 also wins for black) Be5 55.Rb8 Bf5 56.Rb6+ Kd7 57.Rb7+ Kc8 58.Rb5 Bd6 (trying to get the best possible array of pieces before commiting to ...Bxg3) 59.Rb6 Kc7 60.Rc6+ Kd7 (zugzwang) 61.Kc1 (white can't allow ...Bc2) Bxg3! 62.Rxc5 Bxh4 63.Rb5 Bg3 64.c5 h4 (with no king to stop and two bishops' escort, the black pawn is much faster) 65.Rxb4 h3 66.Rb7+ Kd8 67.Rh7 h2 68.Rh8+ Kc7 0-1 (the black king can run to a6) Lots of mistakes by both of us, but interesting from beginning to end! |
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May-14-05
 | | tpstar: <keypusher> Thanks for analyzing our game. Here's another treatment = G Sigurjonsson vs Hort, 1974 I figured 6. Bd3 would transpose after 8. Ne2 & 9. Nbc3 - is there an improvement? |
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| May-14-05 | | azaris: Hey, the mighty <tpstar> finally falls on Gameknot! "We built this city, we built this city on rock an' roll!" |
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| May-14-05 | | hintza: <tpstar> has fallen? Major news! |
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May-14-05
| | keypusher: Well, <tpstar> will get me next time, and I suspect the five times after that.
It's not as if 6 Bd3 is bad, but it doesn't transpose to the Sigurjonsson-Hort game given, since in that game white plays d5 with gain of tempo. But I don't think Bd3 + Ne2 is white's best plan anyway. After ...e5 d5 it seems to me that black is very comfortable, with decent prospects on the kingside. I like 6 Nc3 followed by h3 and Nf3, leaving the q-file open, so that if ...e5 de de Qxd8+ and c5 seems to lead to better endings for white, as per the Gross-Bagirov game <Mating Net> posted above. Anyway, I am pretty free with my opinions for someone who just started playing this defense. Maybe I'll think completely the opposite in a few weeks. |
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May-19-05
| | keypusher: OK, I am really infesting this page. Here is another game with 6 . . . c5, which I think of as the Ljubojevic line (does it have a proper name?):
[Event "Challenge from keypusher"]
[Site "http://gameknot.com/chess.pl?bd=321..."]
[Date "2005.05.19"]
[White "janiko"]
[Black "keypusher"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1509"]
[BlackElo "1516"]
[TimeControl "1/259200"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[Termination "normal"]
1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. c4 Nb6 5. f4 dxe5
6. fxe5 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Nc3 exd5 9. cxd5 c4 10. d6 Nc6 11. Nf3 (my previous opponent leapt in immediately with 11 Nb5) Bg4 12. Nb5 (not in the cg database; chessbase gives two examples of black asphyxiating after the craven 12...Rc8) Bxf3 13. Qxf3 (it looks like black will get plenty for the exchange after 13 gf Qh4+ -- maybe that's the next game . . . ) Nxe5 14. Qxb7 Bxd6 15. Nxd6+ Qxd6 (I uncharitably suspect that only here did my fast-moving opponent realize black's rook was not hanging. A knight on b6 has its uses after all!) 16. Be3? Qb4+ 17. Kf2 Qxb2+ 18. Be2 O-O 19. Rhb1?! Nd3+ 20. Kf1 Qe5 21. Qf3 Rae8 22. Bxb6 axb6 23. Rbd1? Re6 24. Bxd3?? Rf6 and black won after further merciless but uninstructive brutalities.
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| May-19-05 | | Mating Net: <keypusher> Way to carry the Alekhine's Defense flag. Chess with <merciless but uninstructive brutalities> is fun when you win, good job. Looks like you exploited every White mistake. I played a similar game recently up until the 10th move when White played 10.Be3 and I played 10...Bf5. The only game in the database has Black playing 10...Bb4 instead. I'm wondering if that's the best response to 10.Be3 or if there is something better. BTW, I won my game which featured plenty of <merciless but uninstructive brutalities.> |
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May-20-05
| | keypusher: <MatingNet> Thanks. Curiously, Fritz found that 24 Bxd3 was in fact White's best move. White (and black) made plenty of mistakes before that, though. 10 Be3 isn't in Fritz' opening book either. Fritz likes white's position after 10...Bf5 11 Nf3 Bb4 12 Bxb6 Qxb6 13 Bxc4, but who knows? |
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| May-20-05 | | refutor: <<eric schiller> 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8!? (I prefer the Brooklyn Retreat line) 3.d4 d6 4.exd6 Qxd6, reaching the Scandinavian> does white not have stronger than 4.exd6? like 4.Nf3 for instance? |
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| Jun-03-05 | | ArturoRivera: why cant black play 2.-....Ne4? |
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| Jun-03-05 | | Swapmeet: Well he can...but after 3.d3 Nc5 4.d4 the knight must move yet again to either a6, e6, or a4 (4...Ne4 5.f3). Black can probably survive but why give white all that tempo on the knight? |
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| Jun-03-05 | | ArturoRivera: after 2.-d3 Nc5 seems good, besides, white would have locked his light square bishop and the little guy on e5 would be very far from his friends, making d4 a need for protecting it(moving the pawn twice., i am sure there is a reason, but i am not sure why, cause 2.-...Ne4 hasnt even being played once, a powerful reason there must be. |
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| Jun-06-05 | | ksadler: The real reason is 3. d4! where the Black knight is in terrible trouble. 3. .. e6 (for example) 4. Nh3! and Black is in real threat of losing his Knight. Fritz gives 3. .. h6 4. Bd3 d5 (for instance) and the tempo that Black has gained by forcing White to play 2. e5 is negated right away by the wasting of 3. .. h6 and similar moves. |
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| Jun-08-05 | | Swapmeet: <ksadler> But isn't the tempo that black gains by white playing 2.e5 negated simply by the fact that black has to move the knight again? |
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| Jun-08-05 | | pyryk: <Swapmeet> Exactly. By the way, Dan Heisman has written a nice article on the subject on chesscafe.com called "It's Not Really Winning a Tempo!". http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heism... |
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| Jun-08-05 | | ksadler: <Swapmeet> Depends on who you are talking to. There are some Alekhine players who believe that a pawn on e5 is weaker out of the opening than on e2, and thus play 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Ng8. I don't see Black as having wasted anymore time after 2. .. Nd5 than White in the Sicilian after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 (whatever) 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4. There White has moved a piece twice in the opening without conceding any weaknesses in Black's position. |
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