Apr-25-25 | | vonKrolock: After 23...Qe7  click for larger viewNow the <Pibe of Gold> will introduce an extraordinary combination, with a Bishop sacrifice on e5 that will prove very difficult to contest over the board. The only reasonable defense would be Qf7 Bc3 Rxe1 Nxe1 Ne7, and if Rook to a5, then c7-c5 winning back the Pawn... |
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Apr-25-25
 | | Fusilli: <vonKrolok> I don't object to your assessment, but is it really a sacrifice when accepting it means a forced line where material ends up "equal" (three pawns for a piece) but with a passed protected pawn on the seventh rank? It seems unquestionable that black had to play the line you provided. |
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Apr-26-25 | | vonKrolock: <Fusilli> Yes, the dxe5 main line requires quite subtle timing, this performance by Fausti is truly sensational... we can already include him in the category of the greatest prodigies - who are efficient, but also consummate artists: on our side of the Atlantic the gallery is very distinguished (I follow Pablo Mor�n): Morphy, Capablanca, Fischer and Mecking. Point. On the other side we should include Reshevsky, Kasparov, Judit Polgar, certainly a few more... ( and more recently, some from India ...) |
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Apr-26-25 | | morphynoman2: OMG! What a game! Amazing kid! |
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Apr-27-25
 | | Fusilli: <von Krolok> I think the combination of computers and a much higher density of strong chess players in virtually every city have accelerated chess progress so much that prodigies now pop up quite frequently. So many get to GM by age 15 now. On the other hand, some of those early achievers then fizzle down into the crowd of strong but not elite GMs. Take Illya Nyzhnyk, for example. He was all the rage at some point, and now, at 28, he is not even in the top-100 list. (In fact, I wonder if he ever was.) I think the list of incredibly promising players that become just-one-more grandmaster is long. On an unrelated note, I just looked at the chess set from your grandfather that you mention in your profile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUe.... Quite beautiful, and very Russian. It is a pity that the king's crosses are gone, but it's still an impressive set. Does the weight of the pieces feel alright? Are they bottom-heavy, as they should ideally be? |
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Apr-27-25
 | | perfidious: <Fusilli>, in its day, the achievement by future grandmaster Michael Wilder, aged thirteen, was considered impressive enough to grace the following cover of <CL&R>: https://uscf1-nyc1.aodhosting.com/C... Nowadays, no-one would give much notice to a thirteen year-old USCF master. I remember playing Radjabov when he was fourteen and had just made GM, only 25 years later, and that feat was certainly worthy of mention; but I am guessing it was not regarded as being groundbreaking. |
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Apr-27-25 | | vonKrolock: <Fusilli> You very opportunely mention the case of Illya Nyzhnyk (and he is just another of the prodigies that appeared already this century...) - Well, a list that still covered the decades of the nineteen hundreds would not be complete without some other names: From the former Soviet Union: where the prodigies were, so to say, protected from excessive exposure and from what would be - for the Party - the deceptive glitter of life in the Western metropolises - but almost all the Soviet world champions (and others who came close...) were very precocious: and, for example, Karpov, the already mentioned Kasparov, Gata Kamsky were undoubtedly child prodigies. In the West, there were also prodigies: Short for instance - before him Arturito Pomar, etc. (It's cool that you saw my grandfather's set: well, although the pieces had those qualities, etc., they didn't have weights, just felt underneath... (fragile for blitz, yes) - I don't believe in a Russian origin: the answer must be further West - between Kraków, Dantzig and Southampton, perhaps?!) |
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Apr-27-25
 | | Fusilli: <vonKrolok> no doubt! My argument, to clarify, is this: ** Fusilli's Theory on the Declining Promise of Chess Prodigies ** Chess prodigies of the past were more likely to leave their marks in chess history as (adult) elite players of their time than chess prodigies in the 21st century. Reasons for this:
a) In the past, remarkable talent at a very young age meant remarkable natural skill (and intuitive understanding of strategy), since the number of top trainers was limited and computers did not exist. b) Furthermore, the world of professional chess players was small and selective, reducing the ability of medium-level talented players to get exposure, compete, and reach their full potential. (Just think, for example, of top-level South American players with limited exposure to top competition in Europe throughout the 20th century.) This would have given early starters a permanent advantage. Today, there is a lot more competition because chess has become both more global and more accessible. c) In the 21st century, remarkable talent at a very young age is a combination of natural skill (as in the past), and learning of an intensity and quality far greater than ever before, thanks to the density of superior coaching and the ubiquitousness of chess engines. Point (c) means not only that talented players reach their peak earlier, but that many can ascend very rapidly not just because of their natural skill, but also by force of memorization and superior tactical learning (computers are surely superior coaches at this). This means that some players can become prodigies, and early grandmasters, even if their natural skill is not at elite level. But in adulthood, it is that natural skill that makes the difference between the elite players and the other GMs. (FWIW, I think the ultimate advantage of elite GMs over other GMs is that they have an edge on their understanding of position and strategy. But this is VERY debatable.) Of course, I am introducing concepts that need definitions. What is "natural skill"? How do we measure all this? Do we have good data on prodigies of the past who failed to thrive, or do we only know the success stories (which would bias any empirical evidence in favor of my theory)? I do believe that we all can agree on the following: a) Many chess prodigies of recent times have fizzled. Poster child (pun!) for this: Illya Nyzhnyk b) Chess has gone global and the number of players and tournaments is larger than in the past by an order of magnitude. That is obvious, but what matters is that chess competition is more open and accessible than in the past (do we agree on that?) which means prodigies have a harder time climbing the ladder and staying on top (if they get there). c) Computer engines have accelerated the learning process. Now, whether this means that players will peak an an earlier age may be debatable. Do they? |
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Apr-27-25
 | | MissScarlett: <prodigies have a harder time climbing the ladder and staying on top (if they get there).> I doubt this last part. I would argue that it's now easier to maintain high standards for longer, assuming, of course, one is still prepared to put in the work. Think of the 1990s generation, the first to grow up with strong computers - Anand, Ivanchuk, Kramnik, Adams, Topalov, are all still capable of playing at a 2650 level. The Internet generation of Magnus, Caruana, Naka, Nepo, etc. are all still in the elite. These guys probably don't work as hard as the youngsters, but they certainly work smarter. |
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Apr-28-25
 | | Fusilli: <MissScarlett: <prodigies have a harder time climbing the ladder and staying on top (if they get there).> <I doubt this last part.> Do you agree with everything else?
<I would argue that it's now easier to maintain high standards for longer, assuming, of course, one is still prepared to put in the work.> I guess we need to gather systematic data and check. Starting with the youngest GM ever, this was Sergey Karjakin in 2002, whose record was surpassed by Abhimanyu Mishra in 2021. By October 2005, Karjakin was 44th/46th in the world, while Mishra today is 152nd/155th. The Wikipedia entry on chess prodigies has a list of players who reached GM before age 14: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess.... Of course, one can select the players you listed and conclude that prodigies have long-lasting batteries. But then I see names on that list that I either never heard of or I have forgotten because they fizzled. Kids surely learn faster than kids in the 20th century by a long, long shot. It took 33 years for Fischer's 1958 youngest-GM ever record to be surpassed by Judith Polgar in 1991, but we have gotten used to that record having to be updated much more frequently. My thesis is that those who showed huge talent early on in the past were more likely to remain top world class players in adulthood, but to get data from the pre-computer generations, age at which players reached GM will not be useful. We might need to go by something like age at reaching a rating threshold, adjusted by rating inflation. In any event, I don't want to make the mistake of biasing my thinking because I don't see the talented players from the past who vanished without making their permanent marks. This is such a common mistake, an example of which is those who believe that material things (e.g., furniture) were crafted much better in the past because they see a piece of furniture from 100 years ago and it's awesome. Of course, there is magnificent furniture today too, if you are willing to pay the price. And of course, most furniture in the past can't even compare to your worst Ikea. That's why they did not survive. |
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Apr-28-25
 | | keypusher: <I doubt this last part. I would argue that it's now easier to maintain high standards for longer, assuming, of course, one is still prepared to put in the work.> But if it's easier for player A, it's also easier for all of Player A's competitors, who by Fusilli's hypothesis (which seems undoubtedly correct) are more numerous than before, and high standards are higher than before, all of which means the amount of work required is greater than before. |
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Apr-28-25
 | | MissScarlett: <Do you agree with everything else?> By implication.
<I guess we need to gather systematic data and check.> By all means, but I think my point is simply a logical inference. The same processes that accelerate the development of chess prodigies are equally present in extending the career longevity of elite players. |
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