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| Jun-06-12 | | Tiggler: The finish I had in mind is
42.... Ke7
43.Rb8 Kxd7
44.Rxd8+ Kxd8
45.Kf3 Ke7
46.Ke4 Kf6
click for larger view
47.f3 g5
48.hxg5+ Kxg5
49.Kxe5 h4
50.f4+ Kg4
51.gxh4 Kxh4
52.Kxe6
1-0
Are there any improvements for B? |
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Jun-06-12
 | | beatgiant: <Triggler>
<Are there any improvements for B?>
Instead of 47...g5, how about <47...Kf7> 48. Kxe5 Ke7.I don't think White needs to hurry to swap the rook and pawn for the bishop. 42...Ke7 43. Rb7 looks like an easy win. |
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| Jun-06-12 | | Tiggler: <beatgiant: <Triggler>
<Are there any improvements for B?> Instead of 47...g5, how about <47...Kf7> 48. Kxe5 Ke7.
I don't think White needs to hurry to swap the rook and pawn for the bishop. 42...Ke7 43. Rb7 looks like an easy win.> Thank you, you are correct, too hasty. But White is going to lose the d-pawn soon anyway, and the win will eventually involve swapping off the B and R. I think the following is a good continuation: 42... Ke7
43.Rb7 Kd6
44.Kf3 Kc6
45.Ra7 Bc7
46.Ke4 Kxd7
47.Rxc7+ Kxc7
48.Kxe5 Kd7
49.Kf6 1-0
Do you agree? |
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| Jun-06-12 | | LoveThatJoker: <elocym> I gave 20...cxd5 to Stockfish to analyze for 25 minutes. Here is what it came up with:
20...cxd5 21. exd5 Ra8 22. c6 e4 23. Bf4 Be5 24. Bxe5 Qxe5 25. Rac1 Ba6 26. Bxe4 Re8 27. Bf3 Qf6 28. Rxe8 Rxe8 29. Qc3 Kg7 30. Kg2 Bc8 31. Qa1 h5 32. Rd1 Rd8 33. h4 Rd6 34. Qxf6+ Kxf6 35. Be2 Nd7 36. cxd7 Bxd7 37. f3 Ke7 <+1.45 at a depth of 28> I also let it analyze the game continuation for 25 minutes as well, here is what it came up with for that: 20...Qd7 21. Red1 Qe8 22. Bg5 Rd7 23. Nf6+ Bxf6 24. Bxf6 Rxd1+ 25. Qxd1 Qe6 26. Bd8 Qd7 27. Qxd7 Nxd7 28. Bc7 Rc8 29. Bd6 Ra8 30. Rxa8+ Bxa8 31. h4 f6 32. f4 exf4 33. gxf4 Kf7 34. Bh3 Nf8 35. f5 gxf5 36. Bxf5 h5 37. Bxf8 Kxf8 38. Bg6 Ke7 <+1.53 at a depth of 28> LTJ |
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| Jun-06-12 | | vinidivici: <goodevans> i can understand whats your point. it makes the white's connected pawn becomes very strong at the centre. And opened a-file for white rook just adding the pressure for black. great analysis by the way. |
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| Jun-06-12 | | Cibator: But ... but .... Petrosian's exchange sacs ALWAYS work! What went wrong? ;-) |
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Jun-06-12
 | | Gypsy: < Tiggler: ... But White is going to lose the d-pawn soon anyway, and the win will eventually involve swapping off the B and R. > There are more than one way to skin this cat: (1) You are correct that Black can (and must) deal with the d-pawn. And that will take time which, in turn, White uses to prepare a winning denouement. (2) But, the rook is a strong piece and White by no means needs to trade it back for the pitiful bishop in order to win. For instance, consider this theme: <42...Ke7 43.Kf3 Kxd7 44.Rb7+ Bc7> This horrible self-pin, Bc7, just postpones the inevitable. If <44...K~>, then <45.Rg7...>, and Black K-side pins fall sooner. But, at any rate, there is no permanent way to save Black's pawns in the east. <45.Ke4 Kc6 46.Ra7 Kb6 47.Ra8 Kc6 48.Rg8...> ---
All that said. My personal inclination is to trade down into a clearly won pawns and kings endgame. |
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| Jun-06-12 | | kevin86: While white's rook and pawn pin down black's pieces,the white monarch will raise havoc on black's pawns and will win the day. |
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| Jun-06-12 | | goodevans: <Gypsy: < Tiggler: ... But White is going to lose the d-pawn soon anyway, and the win will eventually involve swapping off the B and R. > There are more than one way to skin this cat:> Indeed there are, and if you want to try out different approaches to winning this endgame then I'd recommend giving Crafty EGT a try: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... Enjoy! |
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| Jun-06-12 | | Tiggler: <Gypsy> and <Goodevans> Thank you for your replies.
< Tiggler: ... But White is going to lose the d-pawn soon anyway, and the win will eventually involve swapping off the B and R. > There are more than one way to skin this cat:> Obviouly there are, but I only need one.
If I can demonstrate a win by force that I might find over the board, then I can save the database and engine study for something more difficult. |
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| Jun-06-12 | | chopin4525: "A passed pawn is a criminal which should be kept under lock and key. Mild measures, such as police surveillance, are not sufficient." - Aron Nimzowitsch :) |
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| Jun-06-12 | | newzild: <Tiggler> Your line is a draw because Black can simply let White take the e5 pawn with his king and defend the e6 pawn with his own king. The resulting K+3P vs K+3P is a draw. Some of the other suggestions on this page are also draws because Black can defend the d8 queening square with his king and send his bishop off to attack White's K-side pawn chain. The clearest win I can see is to attack the K-side pawns, thus: 42...Ke7
43. Rb7 Kf6
Black can't move the bishop because White plays 44. d8=Q+ Kxd8 45. Rg7, winning both of Black's K-side pawns. 44. Kf3 Ke7
45. Ke4 Kf6
46. f3 Ba5
Not 46...Be7 47. Rb8. Other moves lose the e5 pawn.
47. Rb8 Ke7
48. Rg8 Kxd7
49. Rxg6
And the rest is child's play. |
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| Jun-06-12 | | Tiggler: <newzild> < <Tiggler> Your line is a draw because Black can simply let White take the e5 pawn with his king and defend the e6 pawn with his own king. The resulting K+3P vs K+3P is a draw.> So how as Black could you ever defend this position? (B to play) 
click for larger viewWhite will simple eat the g and h pawns, and promote one of his two connected passers. B e-pawn can do nothing in time if W f-pawn remains on f2. |
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Jun-06-12
| | Gypsy: <Tiggler: ... Obviouly there are, but I only need one.> This, I think, is the simplest way to bring the tournament point home: 42...Ke7 <43.Kf3...> (1) 43...Bc7 44.Ke4 Kxd7 45.Rb7 (only now) Kc6 46.Rxc7 Kxc7 47.Kxe5 Kd7 48.Kf6... with easy to win pure pawns and kings endgame. (2) 43...Kxd7 44.Rb7+ (or now) Ke8 (of course, 44...Bc7 45.Ke4... transposes into (1)) 45.Rg7... and 46.Rxg6... Complications can happen after 43.Rb7 Kd6 44.Kf3 g5 ... |
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| Jun-06-12 | | Tiggler: <Gypsy>
Such as?:
43.Rb7 Kd6 44.Kf3 g5 45.Rb8 Kxd7
46.Rxd8+ Kxd8 47.hxg5
1-0 |
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| Jun-06-12 | | Tiggler: By the way <Gypsy>, I just checked out your "bio" entry: v. nice. I remembered that the passage was from Steinbeck, but did not remember it was from Sweet Thursday until I got to your citation at the end. Regards,
Tiggler |
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| Jun-06-12 | | Tiggler: <chopin4525>
<"A passed pawn is a criminal which should be kept under lock and key. Mild measures, such as police surveillance, are not sufficient." - Aron Nimzowitsch
:)>
Nimzovitch - what a Guru, more Mystical (mysterious) than Carlos Castaneda, even though he expained it all in "My System". If I had a time machine, I would travel back to pay his sponsorship (if I had the cash) for the WC match against Capablanca or Alekhine, that he could not afford. Greatest player and chess innovator never to compete in a WC match. |
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Jun-07-12
| | Gypsy: <Tiggler: ... Sweet Thursday> Thx. Yes, I am rather fond of Steinbeck's writing in general and of Cannery-Row/Sweet-Thursday in particular. |
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Jun-07-12
| | Gypsy: <Tiggler: Such as?:
43.Rb7 Kd6 44.Kf3 g5 45.Rb8 Kxd7
46.Rxd8+ Kxd8 47.hxg5
1-0>
There are possible problems after the 42...Ke7 <43.Rb7>, such as ... 43...Kd6 44.Kf3 g5 45.Rb8...
Black now has <45...g4+ 46.Ke4 Kxd7 47.Rb7+ Bc7>, where the pawn endgame after <48.Rxc7+(?) Kxc7 49.Kxe5 Kd7> does not look winnable by White: behold <50.Kf6 Kd6 51.Kg5 Ke5 52.Kxh5 Kf5 ... => (Perhaps there is a way to break down the Black fortress that emerged here without trading the rook, but the walls of the fortress look awfully sturdy.) |
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| Jun-08-12 | | Tiggler: <Gypsy: <Tiggler: Such as?:
43.Rb7 Kd6 44.Kf3 g5 45.Rb8 Kxd7
46.Rxd8+ Kxd8 47.hxg5
1-0>
There are possible problems after the 42...Ke7 <43.Rb7>, such as ... 43...Kd6 44.Kf3 g5 45.Rb8...
Black now has <45...g4+ 46.Ke4 Kxd7 47.Rb7+ Bc7>, where the pawn endgame after <48.Rxc7+(?) Kxc7 49.Kxe5 Kd7> does not look winnable by White: behold <50.Kf6 Kd6 51.Kg5 Ke5 52.Kxh5 Kf5 ... =>> Right again! Thanks and, for what its worth, I concur with your earlier posted solution. |
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| Jun-08-12 | | newzild: <Tiggler> Black cannot defend the position you have posted, but on the other hand he is not forced to reach that position. He should put his king on f7 instead of d7. |
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Jun-09-12
| | beatgiant: <Tiggler>,<Gypsy>
Another way to skin the cat?
On 42...Ke7 43. Rb7 Kd6 44. Kf3 g5 45. Rb8 g4+ 46. Ke2 Kxd7 47. f3 gxf3+ 48. Kxf3, that also looks like an easy White win. If the bishop moves, Rh8-Rxh5 with two connected passers; if the king shuffles passively, then Ke4-Kxe5-Ke4-Rb5-Rxh5 with the same result; White is in a good position to handle any counter-attacking attempts. Have I missed anything? I agree that <Gypsy>'s line above is simpler. |
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| Jun-09-12 | | Tiggler: <newzild: <Tiggler> Black cannot defend the position you have posted, but on the other hand he is not forced to reach that position. He should put his king on f7 instead of d7.> But you previously said:
<newzild> < <Tiggler> Your line is a draw because Black can simply let White take the e5 pawn with his king and defend the e6 pawn with his own king. The resulting K+3P vs K+3P is a draw.> At the end of the line I gave, Black king could not reach f7. I suggest you look again! |
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Jun-20-12
| | beatgiant: How about 24...Qf5 as a more active defensive try?
Then 25. g4 merely weakens the kingside: 24...Qf5 25. g4 Qc8 26. c6 Bxc6 27. dxc6 Ne6. Or if 24...Qf5 25. c6 Bxc6 26. dxc6 Ne6 27. Bh6 Bxh6 28. Qxh6 Nd4. Although White still has the strong advanced c-pawn, Black is in a good position to blockade it while keeping reasonable piece activity. I don't see a quick win for White. |
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| Nov-29-12 | | whiteshark: <Tiggler: <Nimzovitch - what a Guru,...>> < They are called gurus because charlatan is too difficult to write and pronounce. <<<<:D>>>>> by courtesy of Peter F. Drucker |
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sac: 23.Qe3