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| Dec-19-02 | | bishop: As usual Morphy is only too happy to give up Pawns for the sake of open lines. Like many of Morphy's opponents Lord Lyttelton forgets that the main aim of the opening is to develop the pieces. |
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| Dec-19-02 | | mdorothy: Yet again, the quote of the day fits well with a game that I look at. <The first principle of attack--Don't let the opponent develop!
--- Fine> |
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| Dec-09-03 | | JustAFish: I think move 11 is the latest that Lyttelton can still hold the game. Taking the pawn on e4 was a big mistake. Does 11 ... Bg4 make sense instead? |
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Dec-09-03
 | | Chessical: 11...Bg4 is significantly stronger than Lyttleton's reckless material grab. I think White is then better, but not winning. |
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| Sep-14-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: I dont understand why Morphy would play such a disadvantageous line. 8. ...Bxf2+? is a blunder, and had black played 8. ...Qg5 9.Qf3 Nc6 10.c3 Bg3 he would have had the better game. |
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| Sep-14-04 | | clocked: : <InspiredByMorphy> what makes you think he would have played 9.Qf3. You do realize that Steinitz played this same line? 9.Nc3 Nf6 10.Qf3 Is what almost anyone would expect. However, there is an (never before played?) alternative: 9.Nc3 Nc6!? 10.Nd5 (10.Bb5 is probably necessary) Nf6! |
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| Sep-14-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <clocked> <9.Nc3 Nf6 10.Qf3 Is what almost anyone would expect> First of all, I was using analysis Philip Sergeant provided in the book Morphys games of chess (excluding move 10). Secondly there are 8 games in the database with 9.Qf3 compared to 4 games with 9.Nc3 . Third, in the one and only game of Steinitz’s where he played this line, his opponent didn’t see 11. …Bg4 12.Qd3 Nd7 which may have given black an advantage. Steinitz vs V Green, 1863 If Morphy was going to play 4.h4 I dont understand why he abandoned his line from the following game. I know he was young, but Im not sure if that means much …
Morphy vs E Rousseau, 1849 and an example of black playing 7. …Nf6
Adolf Anderssen vs NN, 1861 |
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| Sep-15-04 | | clocked: 1)Staunton lost the black side after 9.Qf3
2)You criticize Morphy for playing a disadvantageous line, but then select inferior play. The Nc3 move order allow Bb5. Also, perhaps, 10.d5 is an improvemnt in the line you gave.
3)How do you know what Green did or did not see? Again, Staunton "did not see" it either. Anyway after 11...Bg4 12.Qxg3 white is better. |
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| Sep-15-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <clocked> 1.<Staunton lost the black side
after 9.Qf3> By todays standards Staunton is an amateur.
Therefore Im not going to rely on how he played the line for
black. 2. You say I allow inferior play with the first variation
provided because <The Nc3 move order allow Bb5> I assume your
referring to 9. ...Nc6 "allowing" 10.Bb5 . Here is a game with this
very line in which black wins with the next move because it wins the bishop on b5. ... Gusev vs Plotnikov, 1989 3. <perhaps, 10.d5 is an improvemnt> 8. ...Qg5 9.Qf3 Nc6
10.d5 Nb4 11.Qb3 Qg3 looks better for black. Or 11.Na3 O-O-O
gives black a lead in development. 3.<How do you know what
Green did or did not see?> If Green saw 11. ...Bg4 why didnt he
play it? <after 11...Bg4 12.Qxg3 white is better.> 11. ...Bg4
12.Qxg3 fxg3 13.Bxg5 gxf2+ 14.Kxf2 wins the pawn back for
white, but it is hardly worth it considering what it does to whites
position. Materially speaking it equalizes. Positionally white is still
underdeveloped, and the king is exposed without the ability to
castle. Black is close to castling and has no positional
weaknesses that I can see. However this may be irrelevant due
to being halfway through the middlegame. In my opinion 11.
...Bg4 12.Qxg3 at best equalizes. |
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| Sep-15-04 | | clocked: <InspiredByMorphy> 1)Please do not assume. You just provided the perfect example to make my point! White played Qf3(not Nc3)and Bb5 cannot be played. If white had played Nc3, Bb5 is "allowed".
2)Black's "lead in development" is amazing. I guess a Q-side castle right through the bishop does that. Please reevaluate.
3)"Underdeveloped", white has as much development as black. Notice the h1 rook on the semi-open file? The king is "exposed", exposed to what? This is the endgame. "at best equalizes", look at 14.Kxf2 Nbd7 15.Rh6 (or 15.e5), white has the initiative and may be winning a pawn by force. |
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| Sep-15-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <clocked> 1.)8. ...Qg5 9.Nc3 Bg3 10.Bb5+ c6 11.Bf1(to guard the g-pawn)...Ng4 2.)I was thinking of the 11.Bg4 variation, and overlooked the bishop still on c8. 3.) <8. ...Qg5 9.Nc3 Nf6 10.Qf3 Bg3 11.Bd2 Bg4 12.Qxg3 fxg3 13.Bxg5 gxf2+ 14.Kxf2 Nbd7 15.Rh6> Nh5 16.Be2 Bxe2 17.Nxe2 Ng7 or 15.e5 Nh5 and there is no pawn won. The position looks equal. |
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| Sep-15-04 | | clocked: <InspiredByMorphy> 1)8...Qg5 9.Nc3 Bg3 10.Bb5+? (why? I hope this was not inspired by my comments above. The point was to play Bb5 after Nc6. The natural move is 10.Qf3) c6 11.Bf1 "guard the g-pawn" from what? Ng4 (all the way from g8? really?) 2)16.Be2 no, what does that have to do with winning a pawn? 16.Nd5
16.e5 Nh5?? 17.exd6 cxd6 18.Re1 wins |
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| Sep-16-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <clocked> Im done talking to you. Forgive my innacuracies. |
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| Sep-16-04 | | clocked: <InspiredByMorphy> I saw your comment on the other page. I hope you don't think your opinions are not valued or that I am attacking you. It might be that black DOES have the better game in this variation. I just like taking the contrary side to get closer to the truth. I was a little surprised that you, being a Morphy fan, would take the negative view of his play. Also, did you notice that this was a Blindsim game? |
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| Sep-16-04 | | SBC: Just for the record...
George William Lyttelton was the president of the B.C.A. in 1858. (He was also the brother-in-law of William Ewart Gladstone as well as an education reformer and an under-secretary to the colonies). This is his only game vs Morphy, but as noted, it was a blindfold simul at the 1858 Birmingham Meeting (which Lowenthal won despite the fact that he had just lost his match to Morphy!) and it consisted of 8 boards. The other opponents were Rev. Salmon, Thomas Avery, JS Kipping, John Phodes, Dr. Freeman, Dr. Carr and WR Wills - all strong amateurs, but not the best of the players available. Falkbeer, Lowenthal, Staunton, St. Amant all declined the offer to play. |
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| Sep-17-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <clocked> Thank you for smacking some
sense into me, and restoring my faith in the kieseritsky gambit
(4.h4) . After thinking about it for a day I realized a few things.
1.) I consider your answer to 8. ...Qg5 9.Nc3 Nf6 10.Qf3 Bg3
11.Bd2 Bg4 with 12.Qxg3 to be nearly a refutation of 11. ...Bg4
now. My reasoning being that it loses a pawn, takes a lot of
pressure off whites kingside, and takes the queens off the board
which makes it harder for black to do much. 2.) The Steinitz
game you mentioned is a fine example of what white can play
against blacks line of defense after 8. ...Qg5 . 3.) My statement
of <I dont understand why Morphy would play such a
disadvantageous line> is ignorant, because Morphy plays the
best moves that I can see until move 8, and there is no evidence
that if black pursued the 8. ...Qg5 line that Morphy wouldnt have
played just as well as Steinitz. In fact, I believe he would have. I
think I made the statement with influence of Sergeants analysis
in Morphys games of chess with my own predisposition against
the Kieseritsky gambit. Being that my favorite and most
commonly played opening is the Kings gambit, Ive had a bias for
4.Bc4 . I now realize that this bias has kept me from learning the
kieseritskys possibilities. 4.) After wondering how seriously
Morphy took 4.h4 compared to 4.Bc4 I looked in the book
Morphys games of chess, and looked in the database to confirm
the results. They were that Morphy played the Kieseritsky gambit
5 times (all wins) compared to 4.Bc4 12 times (on a side note he
played 4.h4 g4 5.Ng5 once and The bishops gambit -1.e4 e5 2.f4
exf4 3.Bc4- three times). After looking into this and the fact that
he played the kieseritsky gambit against Anderssen (after this match with Lyttleton), Ive concluded that he must have strongly
believed in it. Im starting too as well. Thanks for helping me see things in a different
light. |
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| Dec-01-05 | | Chopin: <bishop> <Lyttelton forgets that the main aim of the opening is to develop the pieces> That's putting it mildly. Morphy just schooled him. |
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| Apr-12-07 | | Tactic101: Typical Morphy. He plays risky openings that most wouldn't dare to try. I would never consider allowing black to prevent my king castling. But Morphy apparently knew what he was doing. And his opponent didn't know what he was doing. The position at move 11 (black to move) looks pretty equal. White has a nice pawn center and his minor pieces out, along with lines of attack, but black doesn't stand too badly. White's king is exposed and black has the g file to attack. Maybe Nc6 and Bd7 and then 0-0-0 would be good. But instead he goes pawn hunting, opening the e-file for white's rook and allowing the other bishop to give check with tempo. And then the rest is history. |
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| Apr-12-07 | | Atking: <Thanks for helping me see things in a different light.> ! Welcome ! We are all here to learn from the other. I hope. For my part I want to understand your <8. ...Qg5 9.Qf3 Nc6 10.d5 Nb4 11.Qb3 Qg3 looks better for black.> 11.Qc3 with eventually RxBh4... I really like White here. 10. ...Nd4 11.Qd3 BxNf2+ 12.KxBf2 Qg3+ 13.Kg1 QxQd3 14.BxQd3 f5!? may balanced the chance still I'm not sure. To say 15.Nc3 as 15. ...f3 16.Be3 (The rook h8). Indeed you are well <inspired(by Morphy)> the game played here is a good one (again) from the american genius. PS: I like too 4.Bc4 but (as you noted in your lats post) Kieseritsky line is not without interest as after 4. ...g4 the pawn structure is an handicap nearly of the value of the pawn (up). On that subject what do you think about Salvio line ? 4.Bc4 g4 5.Ne5 Qh4+ 6.Kf1 (one must compare this position with 3.Bc4!? 's one) 6. ...Nc6(!) "The refutation" Is at bad as the theory says ? 7.Bxf7+ Ke7 8.NxNc6+ bxNc6 9.Bc4 Nf6 10.d3 Bh6 11.Qe1!... |
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| Apr-12-07 | | iccsumant: See this game, it's quite similar to this one! Morphy vs Lord Lyttelton, 1858 |
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| Apr-12-07 | | Tactic101: That's not funny!!! :) They are the same game! Pretty clever on your part. |
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| Apr-12-07 | | kevin86: This is one of my all time favorites:not only artistically,but tactic-wise as well. White uses five moves-one by each of his pieces-to grind his opponent into submission. Unlike the Opera House game,that sacrifices all but two of his pieces,this one is more subtle. |
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| Apr-12-07 | | Jack Kerouac: I think InspiredByMorphy and clocked should play an e-mail game and post the results.The Kieseritsky Gambit would be a bold challenge.
I too have both Philip Sergeant Morphy books and consider the first one a jewel in my collection. |
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Apr-12-07
 | | playground player: A blunder by Morphy is a good move by anybody else. |
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| Apr-12-07 | | Maxwell843: why didn't Morphy play 15. Re1 and finish the game there and then? |
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