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David Norwood vs Boris Gelfand
EU-ch U20 (1987), Arnhem NED, rd 8, Dec-27
English Opening: Symmetrical. Symmetrical Variation (A36)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: A quiet move! No wonder Norwood missed it (as did I).
Aug-16-20  BxChess: A funny puzzle for me. I actually chose the game line 35. Qe7 and prematurely congratulated myself until I saw that white lost in this line.

I did consider 35. Qd8+ Rxd8 36. Rxd8+ Bf8 37. Rxf8 Kg7, but I couldn't see how to continue. The elegant 38. Re8 found by earlier kibitzers makes it all clear.

Aug-16-20  Brenin: 33 Rc1 would have been much better than the risky move 33 f4 played. If 33 ... Rxc1 then 34 Qd8+ leads to mate, and moving or protecting the R on c8 allows Rc7 or Nd7, giving White a strong attack without exposing his K as in the game. White could also have played 33 Qd8+ Rxd8 34 Rxd8+ Bf8 35 Bc3 with plenty of compensation for the Q.
Aug-16-20  goodevans: <johnlspouge> is a fairly infrequent kibitzer these days, which is a pity since his comments are usually insightful. The point he made in 2009 is worth illustrating with a few diagrams.

First the position after <35.Qd8+ Rxd8 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7 38.Re8!>.

(diag. A)


click for larger view

White is, of course, threatening 39.g5 followed by 40.Rg8# and there is little black can do about it. <38...h6> doesn't help because <39.g5 hxg5 40.fxg5> leaves him with only spite checks to delay the mate.

But there is a way to save his K which is to give up the N on b4: <38...Nd5> (38...Nc6 also works) <39.Bxd5 h6>.

(diag. B)


click for larger view

Now <40.g5> doesn't work because of <40...hxg5 41.fxg5 Nf3+ 42.Bxf3 Qg2+>

(diag. C)


click for larger view

... and when white takes the Q it's stalemate!

Unfortunately for black, back at diag. B white has <40.Re3> trapping his Q.

Aug-16-20  mel gibson: I saw the winning combination for the first 5 plies. White made a mistake with his move.

Stockfish 11 is saying mate for White but not
in how many moves because it
uses the number +147.92 to show a mate.
I gave up after about an hour of processing on my i7 quad core as it still hadn't solved it fully. I need a more powerful computer.
I'd like to get an AMD Ryzen 16 core 3950X.

35. Qd8+

(35. Qd8+ (♕d6-d8+ ♖c8xd8 ♖d1xd8+ ♗g7-f8
♖d8xf8+ ♔h8-g7 ♖f8-e8 ♕h3-c3 g4-g5 ♕c3-c1+ ♗f2-e1 ♕c1-c5+ ♔g1-h2 ♕c5-f8 ♖e8xf8 ♔g7xf8 ♗e1xh4 ♔f8-e7 ♘f6xh7 ♘b4-d3 ♘h7-f6 ♔e7-f8 ♗h4-g3 ♔f8-e7 ♗h1-d5 ♔e7-f8 ♗d5-c6 ♔f8-e7 ♗c6-h1 ♔e7-e6 ♗h1-e4 ♘d3-c5 ♗e4-d5+ ♔e6-d6 ♗g3-e1 ♘c5-d3 ♗e1xa5 ♘d3xf4 ♗d5xf7 ♔d6-c6 ♗a5-d2 ♘f4-e2 ♗f7xg6 ♔c6-c7 ♗g6-e4 ♘e2-d4 ♗d2-a5+ ♔c7-d6 ♗a5-b4+ ♔d6-c7 g5-g6 ♘d4-e6 ♘f6-e8+ ♔c7-b6 g6-g7 ♘e6xg7 ♘e8xg7 ♔b6-a6 ♘g7-e8 ♔a6-b6 ♘e8-f6 ♔b6-a7 ♗b4-d2) +147.92/55 )

score for White +147.92 depth 55.

Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: A million games and they are recycling puzzles?
Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Rites of passage qd8 go for it?
Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: < <goodevans> wrote: <johnlspouge> is a fairly infrequent kibitzer these days, which is a pity since his comments are usually insightful. The point he made in 2009 is worth illustrating with a few diagrams. >

I thank you for your favorable review, <goodevans>. Fortunately for both of us, others produce the style of exhaustive analysis I preferred. And nobody is more exhaustive than <agb2002> :)

My analyses were always skimpy on imaginative defenses, however, and you mined a real gem - with a stalemate finish, no less!

Aug-16-20  RandomVisitor: 33.f4 is not best because black has 33...Qxe3+ 34.Bf2 <Nf3+> drawing.

Better would be either:


click for larger view

Stockfish_20080713_x64_modern:

40/66 07:20 <+11.40 33.Rc1> Ra8 34.Nd7 f6 35.Nxf6 Qb8 36.Rc7 Qf8 37.Rxg7 Kxg7 38.Qd7+ Qf7 39.Bxa8 Qxd7 40.Nxd7 Kf7 41.f4 Ke7 42.Ne5 g5

39/63 07:20 <+7.26 33.Bc3> Qb8 34.Qxb8 Rxb8 35.Rd7 g5 36.Be4 Rc8 37.Bb2 Rb8 38.Bd4 Rf8 39.Ba1 Rc8 40.Kh2 Ng6 41.Ra7 Nf8 42.Kg2 Rd8

23.g4 is a good improvement:


click for larger view

Stockfish_20080713_x64_modern:

38/58 04:20 <+2.59 23...Nh6> 24.Nc3 Nb4 25.Nb5 Qb8 26.Qe4 Nc6 27.f4 Kh8 28.Qf3 f6 29.Qd5 Nf7 30.Qe6 Nfd8 31.Qd7 Qb7 32.Qxb7 Nxb7

38/62 04:20 +2.69 23...Nh4 24.Bh1 Ne5 25.Nd2 e6 26.Qb7 Qxb7 27.Bxb7 Rb8 28.Be4 g5 29.f4 Neg6 30.fxg5 Bc3 31.Kf1 Kg7 32.Ke2 h6

Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: the silent move that once again you have not seen ...
Aug-16-20  Hercdon: <Walter Glattke> In your line 38.-Nf5 39.g5 Nh6 there would follow 40.Bd4. Then Stockfish throws in some spite checks but shows White wrapping up quickly: Qg3+ 41.Bg2 Qe1+ 42.Rxe1 Nd3 43.Re8 Ne5 44.Bxe5 Ng4 45.Rg8#
Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: 35.Qd8+ Rxd8 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7 38.Re8.


click for larger view

I am just recapping what I missed.

I did not see 38 Re8 so I obviously missed both threats, 38...Kxf6 39 Bd4#, or 39 g5 seeing 40 Rg8#.

FWIW, 38 Re8 is not only the one winning move for white but it is the only move that does not lose badly for white.

Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<Sally Simpson> ""You press a button and you get information that at times we spent years accumulating. My trainer and I do, of course, also turn to the computer, but only to check which move it recommends in a concrete situation. Otherwise the computer can completely suppress your human creativity.">

It is not only important to use computers but to use them well. Too bad that Gelfand didn't seem to understand that once the computer recommends a move in a concrete situation then you have to study the move and try to understand <why> the computer recommended that particular move in that situation. You only get out of something the effort that you put into it. And if Gelfand's and his trainer's effort is limited to pressing a button, then I am hardly surprised that they don't get much benefit from using computers.

Perhaps that's why, besides advancing age, Gelfand's rating has been going steadily downhill since shortly after his WCC match with Anand. When you don't know how to use computers properly and you are faced with opponents who do, and they are just as talented and are willing to devote more effort to the game, you will lose.

Hey, if you prefer to be "creative" instead of improving your chess or even keep up with your opponents, that's your choice. But that seems to me a strange choice for a top level player that was sufficiently talented and motivated to reach the point where he was able to compete for the WCC title.

Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  moronovich: Hi <whiteshark>

Good to see you again !

Hope all is well !?

Aug-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: These are my earlier comments...

< 35.Qd8+ Rxd8 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7 38.Re8.

I am just recapping what I missed.

I did not see 38 Re8 so I obviously missed both threats, 38...Kxf6 39 Bd4#, or 39 g5 seeing 40 Rg8#.>

I missed the third threat as well, that only on the e file is the rook protected by moving to the 3rd rank to attack the queen, as in for example, 38...Nd5 39 Bxd5 h6 40 Re3.


click for larger view

Aug-16-20  RandomVisitor: Earlier I mentioned that 34...Nf3+ draws for black.

After 35.Bxf3 (35.Kg2 Nh4+ 36.Kg1 Nf3+ etc) 35...Qxf3 white can force nothing:


click for larger view

Stockfish_20081416_x64_modern:

48/67 15:44 0.00 36.Qd4 Nc2 37.Qd5 Qxf4 38.g5 Bxf6 39.gxf6 Qxf6 40.Qxa5 Kg7 41.Qd2 Rc4 42.a5 h6 43.Qd8 Qf5 44.Qd5 Qxd5 45.Rxd5 Ra4

49/17 15:44 0.00 36.f5 h6 37.Qd7 Rb8 38.Qd8+ Rxd8 39.Rxd8+ Bf8 40.Bd4 Qg3+ 41.Kh1 Qxh3+ 42.Kg1 Qg3+ 43.Kh1

49/12 15:44 0.00 36.Qd7 Rf8 37.Qd6 Qxh3 38.g5 h6 39.Bc5 Qg3+ 40.Kh1 Qf3+ 41.Kg1

49/10 15:44 0.00 36.Qd8+ Rxd8 37.Rxd8+ Bf8 38.g5 Kg7 39.Ne8+ Kg8 40.Nf6+

49/36 15:44 0.00 36.h4 Bf8 37.Qd7 Rc2 38.Rf1 Rxf2 39.Rxf2 Qg3+ 40.Kf1 Nd3 41.Qd4 Qxf2+ 42.Qxf2 Nxf2 43.Kxf2 Be7 44.g5 Kg7 45.Nd5 Bc5+

49/65 15:44 0.00 36.g5 Qxh3 37.Qd8+ Bf8 38.Qd7 Qxd7 39.Rxd7 Kg7 40.Bd4 Rc1+ 41.Kf2 Nc6 42.Ne8+ Kg8 43.Be5 Ba3 44.Bf6 Rc2+ 45.Kg3 Bf8

Aug-16-20  cormier: RandomVisitor:

23.g4 is a good improvement:

Stockfish_20080713_x64_modern:

38/58 04:20 <+2.59 23...Nh6> 24.Nc3 Nb4 25.Nb5 Qb8 26.Qe4 Nc6 27.f4 Kh8 28.Qf3 f6 29.Qd5 Nf7 30.Qe6 Nfd8 31.Qd7 Qb7 32.Qxb7 Nxb7

38/62 04:20 +2.69 23...Nh4 24.Bh1 Ne5 25.Nd2 e6 26.Qb7 Qxb7 27.Bxb7 Rb8 28.Be4 g5 29.f4 Neg6 30.fxg5 Bc3 31.Kf1 Kg7 32.Ke2 h6

Aug-16-20  RandomVisitor: After 35.Qd8+ Rxd8 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7 38.Re8

...it is mate in 27...! Clearly unnecessary to do this...


click for larger view

Stockfish_20081608_x64_modern:

<70/55 9:19:55 +M27 38...Nc6 39.Bxc6 h6 40.Re3> Qxe3 41.Bxe3 Kxf6 42.Bf2 g5 43.Bxh4 gxh4 44.Kg2 Ke6 45.Bf3 Kd6 46.Kh3 Kc5 47.Kxh4 Kd4 48.g5 hxg5+ 49.fxg5 Ke5 50.Bh5 Ke6 51.Kg4 Ke7 52.Kf5 Ke8 53.Kf6 Kf8 54.Bf3 Ke8 55.Bd5 Kf8 56.Bb3 Ke8 57.Bxf7+ Kd7 58.g6 Kc6 59.g7 Kc5 60.Ke5 Kb4 61.Kd4 Ka3 62.g8Q Kb2 63.Qg2+ Kb1 64.Kc3 Ka1 65.Qf1+

70/53 9:19:55 +M26 38...Nf5 39.g5 Ne7 40.Rxe7 Qe6 41.Re8 Qxe8 42.Nxe8+ Kg8 43.Nf6+ Kg7 44.Be4 Na2 45.Be1 Nc1 46.Kf2 Kf8 47.Nxh7+ Ke7 48.Bxa5 Kd6 49.Bb4+ Kc7 50.Nf6 Kb6 51.Ke3 Na2 52.Bd2 Kc5 53.Bd5 Nb4 54.Bxb4+ Kxb4 55.Bxf7 Kc5 56.Bxg6 Kb4 57.Be8 Kc3 58.g6 Kb2 59.g7 Ka3 60.g8Q Kb4 61.Qa2 Ka5 62.Qb2 Ka6 63.Qb8 Ka5 64.Qb5+

69/53 9:19:55 +M26 38...Qc3 39.g5 Qc1+ 40.Be1 Qc5+ 41.Kh2 Qf8 42.Rxf8 Kxf8 43.Bxb4+ Kg7 44.Bc3 Kf8 45.Be4 Ke7 46.Kh3 Nf5 47.Bxf5 gxf5 48.Nxh7 Ke6 49.Bxa5 Ke7 50.Nf6 Kd6 51.Ng8 Ke6 52.Nh6 Ke7 53.Nxf7 Kxf7 54.Bc3 Kg6 55.a5 Kf7 56.a6 Ke6 57.a7 Kd5 58.a8Q+ Kc5 59.g6 Kc4 60.g7 Kb3 61.g8Q+ Kxc3 62.Qf3+ Kb4 63.Qgb3+ Kc5 64.Qfd5+

Aug-16-20  areknames: <FWIW, 38 Re8 is not only the one winning move for white but it is the only move that does not lose badly for white.> And that's why it is such an amazing move. I just love this game of ours.
Aug-16-20  Cheapo by the Dozen: I would likely have just played 35 Qd7, defending with tempo and inducing Black to move his rook to a passive defensive position.

The engine rates that at -0.28.

Aug-17-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: <johnlspouge> Thank you! :)
Aug-24-20  TheBish: <agb2002: White has the bishop pair for a bishop, a knight and a pawn. The position of the black king suggests 35.Qd8+ Rxd8 36.Rxd8 Bf8 37.Rxf8+ (37.g5 Kg7 38.Bc5 Qg3+ 39.Kf1 Qxf4+ 40.Ke2 Qe5+) 37... Kg7 38.Re8 ... >

Actually, 37. g5 Kg7 38. Bc5?? is a helpmate in 2! (38...Bxc5+ 39. Rd4 Bxd4#.)

Instead, after 37. g5 Kg7, White still has a draw in hand with 38. Ne8+ Kh8 39. Nf6 etc.

Aug-25-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: <TheBish: <agb2002: White has the bishop pair for a bishop, a knight and a pawn. The position of the black king suggests 35.Qd8+ Rxd8 36.Rxd8 Bf8 37.Rxf8+ (37.g5 Kg7 38.Bc5 Qg3+ 39.Kf1 Qxf4+ 40.Ke2 Qe5+) 37... Kg7 38.Re8 ... >

Actually, 37. g5 Kg7 38. Bc5?? is a helpmate in 2! (38...Bxc5+ 39. Rd4 Bxd4#.)>

Residual images also have funny sides!

Aug-26-20  TheBish: <agb2002> Yes, it's so easy to miss a check, especially when it's not your main line of analysis. Interestingly, I missed it at first, and if you go back to when this puzzle was posted earlier, it was also missed then by a commentator and pointed out by another.

I appreciate your regular posts and thorough analysis, btw. I used to post more frequently but too busy these days to do it on a regular basis. I too was first inspired to do so by <dzechiel>, solving from the diagram and typing analysis in a notepad.

Aug-27-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: <TheBish: ...

I appreciate your regular posts and thorough analysis, btw.>

Thank you! I always have had the impression that you are the most accurate kibitzer at CG.

<I used to post more frequently but too busy these days to do it on a regular basis.>

Also my priorities have limited my chess activities to merely attempting the daily puzzles.

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