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Aug-06-10 | | niemzo: <Ladolcevita>
Do you even think before posting these kind of sexist comments? Seriously, masculine players? What does that even mean? Players lose to people that are rated 200 points lower than them. It has nothing to do with them being women or men. Surprises happen to sports all the time. |
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Aug-06-10 | | Ezzy: <Ladolcevita: ....Koneru must have underated her opponent.> I doubt it. Koneru has played Munguntuul once before and lost (3rd Women's Grand Prix). Seems like a bogey opponent for Koneru. 2-0 to Munguntuul! |
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Aug-06-10 | | Ladolcevita: <Niemzo>
First I should say...there is a "zo" in my name too~~Then let me explain...All I have said is nothing more than a comparative and relative observation,so please dont call it sexist all right?
As Hellopolgar has discovered already,Kasparov or Topalov rarely lost to lower-rated players whilst on the women side,things are quite different.So is in nearly all areas of sports,with some exceptions for sure. |
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Aug-06-10 | | Ladolcevita: <Ezzy>
Then there is something different |
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Aug-06-10 | | Ladolcevita: Er,it could just be for the sake of rates,since women players are usually of low rates,thus causing more mistakes and inaccuracies on the board,hence the fact and conclusion that it's easier to be a female world champion than a male's.
However,again we should face the issue of gender,since it's weird that a boy genius usually improves and turns a super GM faster than a girl provided that their basic levels are similar.
Some might say it's because women are less self-contained or less aggressive,or women are too romantic or too realistic,or women think in images rather than in abstract way like some male players,et cetera.Call it what you will,but it's just different.
So in short,I think there is at least a little,if not very much,sexual effects in the field of chess,and some other kinds. |
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Aug-06-10 | | Ladolcevita: Of course,this is only a conclusion deprived from the current situation,since there is only a polgar who made it quite well.....
If someday a bunch of female players occupy the list of top10 or even wins the male world champion or doing comparatively equal to male(since female players are probably less than male),then I am without doubts that chess has nothing to do with whether it is a male player or female,which is perhaps still true.
But that's no big deal,because even if women are not as good in chess,they are better otherwhere.
I mean I'm just not sexist to be sure. |
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Aug-06-10 | | percyblakeney: <is it me or it seems it's relatively easier to become a female world champion than a male world champion?> They do have the knockout system so it should be more surprises a la Kasim and Khalif than when they had the traditional match system, in the days of Gaprindashvili, Chiburdanidze, etc. |
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Aug-06-10 | | Blunderdome: <Ladolcevita>
Huzman vs Kasparov, 2003
Now, one could do a statistical test to see whether women or men suffer "upsets" more frequently, but to say that the men's and women's sides are "quite different" in that respect without any substantiation is just a guess. |
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Aug-06-10 | | niemzo: Now, maybe it is that you haven't expressed yourself well, seeing as English is not your maternal language(it's not mine either), but calling a female player masculine just because they are as good as their male counterparts is certainly sexist in my book. I want to clarify that I didn't call you sexist to demean you (actually I didn't personally attack you, it was your comment I found thoughtless), but to go against this rather pervasive idea that women have to lose something of their womanhood to be good at something. You make a good point that lower rated players lose more games which ties with Blunderdome's post about doing a statistical analysis. Compare the results of women to male players with the same rating. If you find a measurable difference, then you can start arguing. Finishing, with regard to the question of whether there are biological reasons for the apparent lack of success of women in chess, I would say that it is ultimately a scientific question and the onus of proof lies with those arguing for such a justification. Especially, if you consider the multitude of cultural reasons one can come up with. |
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Aug-07-10 | | Ladolcevita: Well,in my defense,the reason why I call them MASCULINE is really self-explanatory and justified.
Juju's single-handed backhand is just as handsome as a male player,Serena's violent service and aggressive could destroy every female opponent's confidence and Polgar,whose style is certainly male,I remember she refused to play with women right?
They are masculine,and by maculine,of course I refer to a rather fixed social identity.I dont think such simple expression of the truth is anything sexist. Once my teacher warned me that I should not use "he" in the sentence,"someone may come and go,if HE feels so",they say foreigners are very sensitive to sexual issues.
Now I find it true by your reaction.
I'd like to tell you that in China,there is no such a big deal.It's not that chinese dont respect female that much.I guess it's just because chinese female are not that discriminated in some countries and societies that they dont feel impelled to be that sensitive.I guess it's really ironic,so it's pretty fun watching you react so,like something alien,something I would be fortunate not being a girl in that social background. BTW,I'm a bit homosexual,and I didnt realize my male identity for a long period when I was very little,so I think I am more qualified and "not-thoughtless" than you to talk about sexual issues,and things about the "femininity".
It's not that I'm criticizing the femininity or saying that one "has to lose something of their womanhood to be good at something".Someone says "women always require a pattern"
"women have no gender"or"women are made by society thus not natural,women are not women should be",et cetera....
But when we come to the denotation of "femininity"or"womanhood",it definitely means anything one can think about for a typical woman in reality,so that's where my point is established against,a criterion set by reality rather than ideaology.
If so,one can easily find why that womanhood affects a woman so much,it's not anything related to"sexism",if you dont realize the real difference,you cant expect the equality,because only a part of equality can be established by law,and still more parts are established by something perhaps invisible.
But as I point out before,even though women cant do as well as men in some areas,but they are definitely superior in other areas like balance bar,figure skating et cetera.So it's something real and different,whether is made by human social or historical effect or will of nature or the combination of some.... If telling the truth is sexist,I shall say you are only sensitive to the shallow surface in this regard. |
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Aug-07-10 | | Ladolcevita: Just got back,so I'd like to add some more,if you dont mind?
Er,I guess it's all about culture difference.You see,there isnt even an equivalent for "sexist" in Chinese,all I have got here similar is "BigManism"(and it still takes a moment to search in my mind,since it's a peripheral issue),which means men should work and be the master in house,whilst women should stay in home and dont have to work and be protected and sometimes directd by men...which is,well,still quite different though...because here men usually treat women very tenderly instead of anything abusive.But again,we also have words like"BigWomanism""SmallWomenism",and all of them are parallel.I just cant find anything related to sexist.One have to say"sexual discrimination"instead.And I have never met anyone talking about or confronting these issues,which is quite weird,because in China,many parents(especially older people)do want to give birth to boys rather than girls...But it's in a sense totally different from the western perspective,because the parents are mainly concerned that girls might marry a guy and leave them alone,whilst boys can stay with them when they are old,and sometimes they dont trust girls' judgement.So not sexist after all.... Speaking so far,I'd like to talk about some words that I cant find equivalents in English.For instance "Yuan"or "Yuanfen",which deals with the fact that amongst billions of people and objects,you run into particular ones,and this might be fate,coincidence or whatever termed "Yuan".
Like in a song lyric"If we have "Yuan",we will meet even a thousand miles apart;if we dont,we will not get aquainted even we just stand in front of each other.Ten years of dedication in our past lives make us ferry in the same boat;a hundred years of dedication in our past lives make us sleep on the same pillow",ect...Even though this is a mysterious denotation,we use it frequently and casually in our daily life,especially between close friends and lovers,it's a word everybody will mention to emphasize their feelings usually ardent towards another person.... Another example is "Dao",which is still more ellusive.I dont know how to interpret it.It has something to do with"Taoism",yet it's totally different;it frequently appears in some martial-arts fantasy novels,like by JinYong,but it's common in most literary works and in humorous daily talks.For instance for we students,we say"alas,all my dedication of DAO is ruined by my love affairs"or this expert is of really high level of DAO,something like this...
One of my favourite ancient poems affords another illustration(I just translated it casually,for my English is not that literarily good):
Once I'd been to CangOcean,I could not care the water;Once I'd been to WuMountain,I could not care the cloud.
Find a path through beautiful flowers and I dont look back,half for my dedication/engagement of DAO and half for you. (This poem is dedicated to the author's dead wife,showing that he could never fall in love with others for two reasons:Dao and romantic love in the past with his wife.In my opinion,CangOcean and WuMountain represent the spectacular view in Dao and the unsurpassed relationship with his wife....So it's quite a touching poem especially with the lyric flavour in Chinese) So....anyway,I think it's all about culture difference,we dont have to argue any more. |
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Aug-07-10 | | hellopolgar: 41. ... wall of text <x> my eyes## 0-1 |
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Aug-07-10 | | niemzo: I would say that thinking that our differences are entirely cultural is a clear mistake. What you are saying is sexist, as is bigmanism as you call it. There is no male style in chess. There are only good moves and bad moves. On a final note, I have to say that I hate gender stereotypes. When I say womanhood, I don't mean anything predetermined but what each individual makes it to be. Anyway, I agree that we should stop this since we are in a chess forum. It has already gone too long. I hope we don't get banned.:) |
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Aug-07-10 | | Ladolcevita: <niemzo>
Perhaps you are right...
And you are also right,we should end our discussion here...
Have a nice day,goodbye. |
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Aug-07-10 | | niemzo: Have a nice day , too. The official site mentions that Hou was ill from food poisoning and her game will be played tomorrow. |
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Aug-07-10 | | Ladolcevita: Yes,there the food is like the north of China,whilst Hou is from south,so it's possible to feel sick...Hope she gets well soon anyway. |
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Aug-07-10 | | bharatiy: Koneru is on top but she will face Kosintseva and Zhao, will be difficult to get points from them. She will have to play better than what she has done here to win this GP and she has to win GP if she want to be next WC. BTW does anyone has a link to current GP points for women? |
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Aug-07-10 | | percyblakeney: <BTW does anyone has a link to current GP points for women?> The only thing I've found is a table made by <ebutaljib>, a Chessvibes poster. It's incorrect though since Kosintseva has been given too few points, she was sole second in Jermuk and not shared 2-5th. What does seem correct is that she will play three events and not four, which diminishes her chances quite a bit: http://www.pgndownloads.com/files/2... |
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Aug-07-10 | | Albertan: Percy I found this website has the current FIDE Women's Grand Prix standings: http://ulaanbaatar2010.fide.com/nan...
Summarizing the results of the four previous stages, the leader of Women Grand Prix series is Nana Dzagnidze from Georgia. She scored 390 points and she has one more stage to play – in Santiago, Chile.
The second place is occupied by Chinese Hou Yifan (320 points), the third – by Russian Tatiana Kosintseva (290 points). They both have their last chance to gain the Grand Prix series victory in Ulaanbaatar.
The winner of the Grand Prix series will play in 2011 in the Candidate event of the World Championship Cycle. The cumulative score is based on best three results for each player. |
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Aug-08-10 | | Don Cossacks: I hope Tatiana wins. |
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Aug-08-10 | | whiteshark: After 8 rounds Yifan Hou took the sole lead with 6/8, half point ahead of Koneru Humpy. |
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Aug-08-10 | | xanadu: Whiteshark: I was watching the game Hou Yifan vs Cheng at the official site (six hours ago), very interesting game. I left at the time control in an unbalanced position. So: you mean that Hou won this game? I couldn´t find anything now at the official web. |
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Aug-08-10 | | whiteshark: <xanadu: ...you mean that Hou won this game?> Yes, around move 50, last white move if I recall correctly was 50.Rf6+ which was going to win a black bishop (after ...Kg7 51.Rf4 as both black Bishops were unprotected on the 4th rank). Well, today is free day, and I guess due to division of responsibilities cross table, standings and pgn will only be updated tomorrow. ;) |
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Aug-08-10 | | xanadu: Thanks Whiteshark.
Hou took risks: she had a draw by repetition at about move 35 aprox., but she went for a fight! Good spirit! |
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Aug-09-10 | | bharatiy: Koneru has easy draw now onwards, so she may have some chances to win this, but Hou is half point ahead and needs only draw in both her games to win this one. |
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