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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 179 OF 182 ·
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Sep-09-09
 | | al wazir: Computers have grown so powerful -- and more importantly, chess software has improved so much -- that now we speak of some moves as "computer moves." A computer move is so deep and mysterious that mere humans, even GMs, would never think of making it, cannot even fathom it until they see the consequences. But it works. If this trend continues, *every* game played with engines will have its computer moves. Eventually most of the moves may be computer moves. What will happen then? Where will that leave us poor humans? |
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Sep-09-09
| | al wazir: I hesitate to post in what has become the white team's post-mortem forum. (None of my teammates seem to have anything to say.) In the absence of comment from our team's stronger analysts, I would just like to say that I was surprised when white gave up their 1-♙ advantage. After it became clear that material was going to be even (say, after 37...Qe4) the game stopped looking like 1:0 and a draw seemed likely. Was it really necessary to give up that ♙? |
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| Sep-10-09 | | YouRang: <Was it really necessary to give up that pawn?> Well, I can't speak for the others, but it seems that the move that gave up the extra pawn was 37.Qg3. In review, I think we all agree that it wasn't the best move. I'm not sure we were winning anyway, but our chances could have been better with 37.g3. |
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Sep-10-09
 | | OhioChessFan: <al wazir> I think the computers are wrong. Without getting into a 30 ply variation, I don't see how we could take our Queen to Black's end of the board to initate an attack while keeping our King safe on our end from a series of checks. I do think 37. g3 would have been more interesting. |
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Sep-10-09
| | OhioChessFan: <DEEPERGRAY: Pg. 76 I don't expect anything really aggressive coming from white The whole game they have been voting for a conservative advantage Sacrifices and rook lifts are probably not going to happen unless forced> Ouch. I think that's unfortunately true. The difficulty is we never found a compelling line to initiate an attack. There were always so many variations for Black that we couldn't set forth a reasonable 10 ply mainline variation. Team games have a tendency to play for continued advantage and avoid speculative attacks. I think we went overboard with it though. |
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Sep-10-09
| | OhioChessFan: Wow. I decided to plug White's 23rd move into Fritz without allowing the en passant capture. Fritz immediately picked g4 as his choice. I think that might have been something we missed. I'll have a look at it.
click for larger view |
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Sep-10-09
| | OhioChessFan: Fritz's evals are dropping in the 23. g4 line. 23..Nxd1 might be a mistake, but 23...g6 24. gxf5 gxf5 25. Rd3 is down from an initial .65 to .35 at 22 plies. |
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Sep-10-09
 | | plang: <Well, I can't speak for the others, but it seems that the move that gave up the extra pawn was 37.Qg3. In review, I think we all agree that it wasn't the best move.> Personally, I would not have known how to play for a win after 37 g3. |
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| Sep-10-09 | | YouRang: <Personally, I would not have known how to play for a win after 37 g3.> I wouldn't either, at least not in terms of specific lines. But it guards our h-pawn and creates a little shelter for our king. Is it enough to buy time to make our a-pawn become a decisive threat? Only time would tell. <For black team>:
I was a little surprised that black didn't take the a-pawn when they had the chance with 36...Qxa2. Yes, white could play 37.Qe8+ Kg7 38.Qe7+ Kg8 39.Qxf6 to win back black's f-pawn, but without the outside passed a-pawn to worry about, I thought black could easily force a draw. The logical continuation, I think is: 39...Qb1+ 40.Kh2 Qe4 [diagram]
click for larger view
And between black's attack on Pf5 & Ph4, threats to advance Pd5, and opportunities to check our king, it's difficult to see how white can make progress. |
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| Sep-10-09 | | Artar1: After <37.g3>, the outcome of the game would have been unclear, with White retaining a small edge. Black would have had more opportunities to go wrong, of course, and the level of play would have required considerable technical skill from both sides. 37. g3 (Qc4 Was Fritz's choice after 22-ply.) 38. h5 [38. Qe8+ Kg7 39. Qe7+ Kg8 40. Qxf6 d4 41. Qg5+ Kf7 42. Qf4 Qd5+ 43. Kg1 d3 44. Qd2 Kg8 45. Kf2 Qxf5+ 46.Qf4 Qc5+ 47. Kf3 Qc2 48. Qg4+ Kf8 49. Ke3 Qc1+ 50. Kxd3 Qa3+ 51. Ke2 Qxa2+ 52.Ke3 Qa3+ 53. Kf2 Qc5+ 54. Kf3 Qa3+ 55. Kg2 Qa2+ 56. Kh3 Qf7 57. h5 Qf1+ 58. Kh4 Qf6+ 59. Qg5 Qc6 60. Qf5+ Kg7 61. Qe5+ Kf7 62. Qf4+  ] 
click for larger viewWhite has a small edge but it may not be enough for a win. 38...d4 39.h6 Qc8 40. Qe2 d3 41. Qxd3 Qa8+ 42. Kg1 Qg8 43. Kf1 Qd5 44. Qe2 Qxf5+ 45. Kg2 Qd7 46. Kh2 Kg8 47. a4 Kf7 48. a5 Kg6 49. a6 Qa7 50. Qf1 Kg5 51. Qc1+ Kg6 52.Qc6 Qe3 53. Qc2+ Kxh6 54. Kg2 Qd4 55. Qa2 Qa7 56. Qe6 Kg6 57. Qe4+ Kh6 
click for larger viewDespite the favorable evaluation for White, this game appears drawn. |
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| Sep-10-09 | | Artar1: Here are two more variations, both of which end in a draw: 37. g3 Qc4 38. Qe8+ Kg7 39. Qe7+ Kg8 40. Qxf6 d4 41. Qg5+ Kf7 42. Qf4 Qd5+ 43.Kg1 d3 44. Qd2 Kg8 45. f6 (Let's try pushing the f-pawn instead.) 
click for larger view45...Qd4+ 46.Kh2 Kf7 47. a4 Kxf6 48. a5 h5 49. a6 Kf7 50. Kg2 Qd5+ 51. Kf2 Ke8 52. a7 
click for larger view[52.Qe3+ Kd7 53. Qf3 Qd4+ 54. Kg2 d2 55. a7 d1=Q 56. a8=Q Q4g1+ 57. Kh3 Qdf1+ 58. Qxf1 Qxf1+ 59. Kh2 Qf2+ 60. Qg2 Qxg2+ 61. Kxg2 Draw] 
click for larger view52...Qf7+ 53. Ke1 Qxa7 54. Qxd3 Qg1+ 55. Kd2 Qf2+ 56. Kd1 Draw 
click for larger view |
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| Sep-10-09 | | whatthefat: I think if White had a win, it must have been earlier. Do the engines see any promise in <Gypsy>'s suggestion of 12.Be1 (the point being that White can start to advance the kingside pawns) compared to the text move 12.Bb2 ? |
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| Sep-10-09 | | YouRang: <whatthefat: I think if White had a win, it must have been earlier. Do the engines see any promise in <Gypsy>'s suggestion of 12.Be1 (the point being that White can start to advance the kingside pawns) compared to the text move 12.Bb2 ?> One could run a computer analysis of the position at move 12, but unless it's a computer that understands FischerRandom castling, the evaluations, unfortunately, are likely to be useless. I don't have a computer that understands FRC -- does anyone? |
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| Sep-10-09 | | YouRang: <Artar1> Interesting post-mortem analysis. Thanks. Of course, the lines that the computer came up with is probably much different than what we would have played. Never-the-less, I had the feeling over the last several moves that we (white) didn't have quite enough advantage to force a win, even had we found 37.g3. Then again, chess is funny in this regard. There are positions where any advantage seems vaporous at best, and yet a clever win can be forced. Meanwhile, there other positions where one side seems to have a huge advantage, and yet cannot get past a draw. |
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Sep-10-09
| | OhioChessFan: <whatthefat: I think if White had a win, it must have been earlier. > The alternatives to Qa5 aren't working out for me when sliding forward with Fritz. They show great promise but dwindle down to a draw after some exchanges. <YouRang: There are positions where any advantage seems vaporous at best, and yet a clever win can be forced. Meanwhile, there other positions where one side seems to have a huge advantage, and yet cannot get past a draw. > I have been thinking the same thing about this game. There's still a few points I want to look at. Specifically, 10. Ne5 16. 0-0 18. Nd6 and 21. e5. I'll try to fun this through my Fritz's FRC program. It is amazingly slow though. |
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Sep-10-09
| | OhioChessFan: Wow, got Fritz up and running on the 960 program. Hard to know how many plies to run a position to be fairly sure of the evals.
To my surprise, at 14 plies, Fritz is touting 16. 0-0 and 16. e4 as tied for the best choice. |
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Sep-10-09
| | OhioChessFan: At lower plies, about 14-15 a move, I am stunned how often both sides played Fritz's first choice. And Fritz didn't find any important improvements for White. He hated Black's 3...e5. That early in the game, I don't know what to make of that, but it did lose about a .80 in evals. I may let it run overnight on a few of the important moves. One point I'm surprised is Fritz really doesn't like 13. f3. It's dropped about .20 in eval last time I checked. I thought our side had some discussion if we were chasing the Knight where it wanted to go (g5/e6) but I don't recall too much concern about the move. Fritz is okay with 16. 0-0 so far. I'm going to leave it up overnight on White's 18th move. |
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| Sep-10-09 | | ronpaz1: the Black team had a a debate at the 23 move between 23...gxf6 to 23...Nxb1.
can someone please run a program to compare between the 2 moves? |
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| Sep-11-09 | | YouRang: <ronpaz1: the Black team had a a debate at the 23 move between 23...gxf6 to 23...Nxb1. can someone please run a program to compare between the 2 moves?> Indeed, it appears that those were the only two viable moves, but (according to my computer), black chose the best with 23...gxf6:
click for larger view
Rybka 2.2n2 21 ply:
-0.67 23. ... gxf6 24.f5 Nxc5 25.Rxd4 Nd5 26.Qxc5 Qxd6 27.Qxa7 Kh8 28.Rc4 Rg8 29.Qf2 Rb8 30.g3 -0.82 23. ... Nxb1 24.f7+ |
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| Sep-11-09 | | ronpaz1: <YouRang>
thx for the replay!
can you please continue few moves after 23...Nxb1 24.f7+. I was under the impression that the threat Nxc5 is giving Black good counter chances |
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| Sep-11-09 | | YouRang: Real quickly, I moved ahead with <23...Nxb1 24.f7+ Kh8 25.Qxb1 Nxc5 26.Rxc4> and then I got this:
click for larger view 20 ply:
-0.78 26. ... Nb7 27.Rfd1 c5 28.Nxb7 cxd4 29.Nxd8 Rxd8 30.Qb3 g6 31.Qb4 Qxf7 32.Rxd4 Rxd4 33.Qxd4+ -0.92 26. ... Qe7 27.Re1 Ne6 28.Qe4 Rxd6 29.Rxd6 Qxd6 30.Qxe6 Qxe6 31.Rxe6 g6 32.Rxc6 Rxf7 33.g3 |
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| Sep-11-09 | | imag: Rybka 3 prefers 24.fxg7:
23...Nxb1
click for larger view [+1.40] d=20 24.fxg7 Rf6 25.f5 Nxc5 26.Qc4 Kxg7 27.Qxd4 Ne4 |
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Sep-11-09
| | OhioChessFan: So far, Fritz can't find a winning line for White anywhere after 13. f3 He has been running a close race between 18. Nd6 and 18. f4. I'm going to force in Bd3 and see what happens. After that, I will back up to White's 13th move and then maybe concede that it is simply one of those positions that looks like a win but it isn't. Or maybe Fritz10 isn't that good. |
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Sep-11-09
 | | Gypsy: <OhioChessFan: So far, Fritz can't find a winning line for White anywhere after 13. f3 He has been running a close race between 18. Nd6 and 18. f4. ...> My strong feeling was that White would have had auspicious winning chances had we played <12.Be1>. I felt that after the game <12.Bb2>, while optically stronger at the outset, the position would too soon lead to exchanges and gradual equalization. (The key difference between the two lines lies in the early forced exchange of d.sq.Bs, which, in turn, allows just-in-time undermining of the White center.) Now, I don't want to be misunderstood: I enjoyed the tense struggle after the 12.Bb2 was chosen! Both team walked a fine line of White advantage being gradually shaved away, while all the time that advantage could have easily become overwhelming after a single misstep or loss of a tempo by Black. I just still think that Black defense would have to cope with too much in the 12.Be1 variant. |
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Sep-11-09
| | OhioChessFan: <Gypsy: My strong feeling was that White would have had auspicious winning chances had we played <12.Be1>. I felt that after the game <12.Bb2>, while optically stronger at the outset, the position would too soon lead to exchanges and gradual equalization. (The key difference between the two lines lies in the early forced exchange of d.sq.Bs, which, in turn, allows just-in-time undermining of the White center.)> After plugging the game into Fritz, I've about given up having strong feelings about the various moves. I think I preferred 12. Be1 myself. I think we were a little disjointed in what we wanted. In the opening, we seemed to be satisfied with positional advantages and the Bishop pair. Then we gave up the Bishop pair. In the middle game, we liked our e and f Pawns. Then we played Qc2 and gave up our e and f Pawns. But I do feel we had a Laskerish admonition to attack and didn't. Be1 would have facilitated that for sure. Maybe there just wasn't a win on the board. Perhaps if Black had slipped up even a little we wouldn't have all these misgivings. Patient defense was rewarded for Black with a hard fought draw. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 179 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
WARNING ABOUT COMPUTER USE:
The use of chess playing computers is strictly prohibited during this game. You may not
post computer analysis or evaluations to the Kibitzer's Corner, or
consult chess playing computer software, including endgame tablebases, to help you decide on a move.
Anybody violating this rule will be suspended from the game.
Chess databases (such as chessgames.com) and reference materials are permitted.
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