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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 178 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-08-09 | | YouRang: Another really good black move was <41...h6!>. It caught us off-guard and it seemed to effectively shut down the endgame tactics we were hoping for. |
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| Sep-08-09 | | whatthefat: <YouRang>
Credit where it's due - you were one of our strongest analysts, and you were there helping out for the great majority of the game. I think the advent of engine analysis has led a lot of casual players to forget just how tough it is to reliably produce quality analysis on a short time-frame. Games like this (along with my own individual correspondence games) help to remind me just how tricky chess is when you've got nothing concrete to guide you - no simple blunder-check besides your own intuition. Even with the help of other analysts as a safety net, it takes a lot of diligence, acumen and chess erudition to perform at a high level under such conditions. In light of that, I gained a lot of respect for the analytical abilities of my teammates in this game. |
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| Sep-08-09 | | PinnedPiece: Don't know what's become of <eisenherz> who was a consistent & valued contributor on Team Black during the middle of the game and saw the value of 22..f5. . |
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| Sep-08-09 | | imag: <YouRang: I would be most interested in a deep Rybka analysis of white's 22nd move. That move was decided by one vote. I personnaly think we went the wrong way there (I preferred 22.Rde1).> 22.Rde1 is indeed Rybka's first choice at 23 ply, scoring +0.83, 22.Qc2 scores +0.72. Rybka gives the following continuation: 22.Rde1 Nxc5 23.Qf2 Nxb1 24.Rxb1 I'll try to post more analysis tomorrow. |
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| Sep-08-09 | | YouRang: If you want to view this game, there does seem to be a working PGN viewer at this site: http://www.lutanho.net/pgn/pgnviewe...
WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU GET THERE:
In the FEN box (near the bottom left), enter the initial position FEN string below (but replace first backslash "\" with forward slash "/"). <
nbqrbknr\pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/NBQRBKNR w KQkq - 0 1>
Then, in the PGN box (long narrow box just right of the board), paste the PGN below: <
1.c4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.c5 e5 4.dxe5 Bxe5 5.Nf3 Bf6 6.Nb3 Bd7 7.Nbd4 Nc7 8.Bc3 Be7 9.b4 Nf6 10.Ne5 Ne4 11.Nxd7+ Qxd7 12.Bb2 Bf6 13.f3 Ng5 14.Nf5 Bxb2 15.Qxb2 Nge6 16.O-O O-O 17.e4 d4 18.Nd6 b6 19.f4 bxc5 20.bxc5 Nb5 21.e5 Nc3 22.Qc2 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.f5 Nxc5 25.Rxd4 Nd5 26.Qxc5 Qxd6 27.Qxa7 Kh8 28.Qa5 Rfe8 29.Qd2 Qc5 30.Kh1 Re5 31.Re4 Rxe4 32.Bxe4 Qc4 33.Re1 Re8 34.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 35.Qxe1 cxd5 36.h4 Qd4 37.Qg3 Qe4 38.h5 Qb1+ 39.Kh2 Qxf5 40.Qf3 Qe5+ 41.Kh3 h6 42.a4 d4 43.a5 d3 44.g4 Qd4 45.a6 Kg7 46.Qb7+ >
Then, you can click on the move buttons to step through the game. |
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| Sep-08-09 | | YouRang: <imag> Thanks for the move 22 analysis! I've had my computer trudging along for a couple hours, and I've been dismayed to see that it still prefers 22.Qc2 after all. :-\ Of course, whether we could have found the right continuation after 22.Rde1 is and will remain a great uncertainty, but I thought that 22.Qc2 was where we started to lose our grip. (Although I admit that I didn't expect 22...f5!) With 22.Rde1, we strengthened those 2 e&f pawns that were bearing down on the black king position. Those, along with the LSB hitting h7 and the knight at d6 looked like immense pressure on black, although I never did see how to make all the pieces fall into place. Okay, now that I've bragged about supporting 22.Rde1, I expect <imag> to announce that the whole idea goes into the toilet at at 24 ply. ;-) |
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| Sep-08-09 | | blue wave: What I wonder about is if 23.exf6 was the right move? This move I struggled with. Was 23.Nxf5 OK? |
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Sep-08-09
 | | plang: I enjoy the games where computers are not allowed the best. I think you learn a lot more. |
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| Sep-08-09 | | YouRang: <imag: .... White's play in the opening and early middlegame was nearly flawless. The position after our 26...Qxd6 seems critical, there might be White improvements in this phase of the game.> It will be interesting to see what white improvements could be found. I think we were a little slow to appreciate 27...Kh8. This move put the black king out of range of tactics and made it so that our own f-pawn seemed to be working for black by getting in our way. Earlier in the game, I thought we had real winning chances, but after this, the rest of the game seemed rather frustrating. Around this time I started believing that we had a probable draw (barring any black innaccuracies). |
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| Sep-08-09 | | blue wave: Well I just did my first computer look at the position after we both castled; 16.0-0 0-0 Interesting.
At 20 ply hiarcs 12.1 likes this line of play -
17.f4 f6 18.e4 b6 19.cxb6 and gives a rating of [+0.77] Which gives this postion -
click for larger viewThis gives rise to a very different feeling game. This leaves me with questions. Why play 17.f4 before 17.e4? It must be to secure an outpost at e5. This would explain why black responds with the move f6 I suppose? My other question is why play 19.cxb6? Is that because the resulting pawn formation is weak for black? I can see that it does seem to make it easier for white to not have to try to defend the pawn at c5 after an exchange of pawns at the c5 square. This also suggests that the d6 outpost is then not worth trying to post the knight on as we did. So perhaps we should have simply left our knight at f5. I'm willing to admit this is probably stronger for white. If black tries to kick the knight with say <..g6> the knight can move back to say <h4> and the g6 pawn becomes a target for the knight and out Bishop at b1. And the advance of <..g6> has weakened their kingside pawns. Yes I can see the computer likes the kinght at f5 and is more then happy to leave it posted here. |
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| Sep-09-09 | | blue wave: A look a bit further along. After 16.0-0 0-0 17. e4 d4 we had this -
click for larger viewAt 20 ply, hiarcs likes 18.Bd3 a5 19.a3 g6 20.Nd6 b6 21.Bc4 Nb5 22.Nxb5 cxb5 23.Bd5 bxc5 24.bxc5 Nxc5 25.Qxd4 Qe7 26.Qc3 Qa7+ 27.Kh1 Ne6 rated as [+0.79] giving this postion -
click for larger viewOne thing I am noting is that the computer is far more interested in getting the LSB of the back rank and into the game. Something we never did. The LSB was left at b1 for a long time and never really got to play an active role the game. I think the move of 18.Bd3 is a good move. |
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Sep-09-09
 | | OhioChessFan: <This also suggests that the d6 outpost is then not worth trying to post the knight on as we did. So perhaps we should have simply left our knight at f5. I'm willing to admit this is probably stronger for white. > I hated Nd6. It was unsustainable. A fairly natural series of moves led to its death right there. And as Hiarcs shows, black wanted to play b6 anyway. I think the series of moves 16-18 is where we lost all of our initiative. |
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| Sep-09-09 | | blue wave: Another search from after 18.Nd6 b6 was played in our game; by hiarcs at 20 ply. 18.Nd6 b6 19.f4 bxc5 20.bxc5 g6 21.e5 f5 22.Bc2 kg7 23.Bb3 a6 24.Qa3 Rb8 25.Bc4 h6 26.Qa5 Rb2 27.Rd3 Qe7 28.Rb3 gives rating score of [+0.84] The position that arises after this line is -
click for larger viewI find this interesting for a few reasons. White still has a strong knight at d6, well supported. According to the computer white is doing well if I'm not mistaken. What intrigues me is that after 21...f5 the computer didn't bother to take the pawn with 22.exf6?? I'm interested in looking more at this later more closely. It does seem to show that white has big space advantage in the game. White seems ready to take control of the Queenside in this line. And the black d4 pawn looks hard to defend. |
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| Sep-09-09 | | blue wave: Another 20 ply from 20.bxc5 Nb5 -
Hiarcs 12.1 liked 21.e5 Nc3 22.Rde1 Nxc5
It actually liked 22.Qc2 at 19 ply then changed to 22.Rde1 upon finishing its 20th ply. Curious. The computer even seems to be having trouble making up its mind here. |
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| Sep-09-09 | | YouRang: <blue wave: Another 20 ply from 20.bxc5 Nb5 - Hiarcs 12.1 liked 21.e5 Nc3 22.Rde1 Nxc5
It actually liked 22.Qc2 at 19 ply then changed to 22.Rde1 upon finishing its 20th ply. Curious. The computer even seems to be having trouble making up its mind here.> My computer also preferred 22.Qc2 for the longest time. But <imag> showed <22.Rde1 Nxc5 23.Qf2!!> which, BTW, was a move I gave little attention to -- I thought 23.Qb4 was best. After this, the computer for a long time thought that 23...Nb7 was black's best reply, threatening to trade off Nd6 [diagram]
click for larger view
However, this leads to the remarkable bishop sac that we had been looking for: <24.Bf5!> forcing the queen to c7 or e7. If <24...Qc7>, then <25.Bxh7+!! Kxh7 26.Qh4 Kg8 27.Nf5> threatening Ne7+; black my try to prevent this with <27...f6>, but then the rook lift <28.Rf3> creates deadly threats at h3 or g3. If <24...Qe7>, then <25.Bxh7+!! Kxh7 26.Nf5> forces the queen away, allowing 27.Qh4+ Kg8 28.Ne7+, winning. Another plausible move for black would have been <23...Ne6>, but this loses to <24.f5 Ng5 25.h4>. It's fun to know this stuff, but it would have been remarkable if we had really found these lines without computers. |
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| Sep-09-09 | | YouRang: <OhioChessFan><I hated Nd6. It was unsustainable.> Well, I bet black hated Nd6 too. ;-) |
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Sep-09-09
| | OhioChessFan: <Imag: Slightly changing the move order: White will not play Ne5 unless we weaken c6 by playing b6. > I think we might have been better off if we'd waited to play Ne5 as you suggest. |
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Sep-09-09
 | | Tabanus: Jeez. Where can one find the starting position? |
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| Sep-09-09 | | ILikeFruits: hello bombasta clad...
seen me...
ganja rasta...
mon... |
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Sep-09-09
 | | Stonehenge: <Tabanus> here: Chessgames Challenge: Team White vs Team Black, 2009 :) |
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| Sep-09-09 | | YouRang: <Tabanus>
click for larger view
1.c4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.c5 e5 4.dxe5 Bxe5 5.Nf3 Bf6 6.Nb3 Bd7 7.Nbd4 Nc7 8.Bc3 Be7 9.b4 Nf6 10.Ne5 Ne4 11.Nxd7+ Qxd7 12.Bb2 Bf6 13.f3 Ng5 14.Nf5 Bxb2 15.Qxb2 Nge6 16.O-O O-O 17.e4 d4 18.Nd6 b6 19.f4 bxc5 20.bxc5 Nb5 21.e5 Nc3 22.Qc2 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.f5 Nxc5 25.Rxd4 Nd5 26.Qxc5 Qxd6 27.Qxa7 Kh8 28.Qa5 Rfe8 29.Qd2 Qc5 30.Kh1 Re5 31.Re4 Rxe4 32.Bxe4 Qc4 33.Re1 Re8 34.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 35.Qxe1 cxd5 36.h4 Qd4 37.Qg3 Qe4 38.h5 Qb1+ 39.Kh2 Qxf5 40.Qf3 Qe5+ 41.Kh3 h6 42.a4 d4 43.a5 d3 44.g4 Qd4 45.a6 Kg7 46.Qb7+ 1/2-1/2 |
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Sep-09-09
| | OhioChessFan: You know, <YouRang> had such a gentle way of pointing out our blunders. And there sure were a lot of them. Elvis had more than a few himself. |
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Sep-09-09
| | Tabanus: <Stonehenge> <YouRang> Thanks! Guess I'll have to set it up manually to find out about the castling at move 16 :) |
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| Sep-09-09 | | YouRang: <Tabanus> For the position right after castling (i.e. ready for white's 17th move):
click for larger view
FEN:
3r1rk1 /ppnq1ppp/2p1n3/2Pp1N2/1P6/5P2/PQ2P1PP/1B1R1RK1 w - - 0 17 (remove blank before first slash) |
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| Sep-09-09 | | WhiteRook48: and it was going to have four queens |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 178 OF 182 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
WARNING ABOUT COMPUTER USE:
The use of chess playing computers is strictly prohibited during this game. You may not
post computer analysis or evaluations to the Kibitzer's Corner, or
consult chess playing computer software, including endgame tablebases, to help you decide on a move.
Anybody violating this rule will be suspended from the game.
Chess databases (such as chessgames.com) and reference materials are permitted.
Thank you for preserving the integrity of this contest.
