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The World vs Gert Timmerman
C U R R E N T P O S I T I O N

Can a group of chess amateurs team up to beat a grandmaster? Find out in the Chessgames Challenge! You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members on this page.

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[G.J. Timmerman]

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GAME OVER: 1-0

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MOVES:
1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.c4 Bg7 5.Nc3 O-O 6.Nf3 d6 7.O-O c6 8.Qb3 Na6 9.Rd1 Kh8 10.Qa3 Nc7 11.d5 Bd7 12.Rb1 a5 13.dxc6 bxc6 14.c5 Ne4 15.cxd6 exd6 16.Bf4 d5 17.Be5 Re8 18.Bxg7+ Kxg7 19.Rbc1 Qe7 20.Qxe7+ Rxe7 21.Na4 Nb5 22.Nb6 Ra6 23.Nxd7 Rxd7 24.Ne5 Rd6 25.f3 Nf6 26.a4 Nc7 27.Bf1 Re6 28.f4 Ne4 29.e3 Rb6 30.Bd3 Na6 31.b4 Nxb4 32.Bxe4 fxe4 33.Nd7 Rb7 34.Nc5 Ree7 35.Nxb7 Rxb7 36.g4 Rc7 37.Rc5 Ra7 38.h4 Ra6 39.Rcc1 Kf6 40.Rf1 Nd3 41.Rb1 h5 42.gxh5 gxh5 43.Rb8 c5 44.Rfb1 d4 45.Kf1 dxe3 46.Rf8+ Ke7 47.Rbb8 Rg6 48.Rbe8+ Kd6 49.Rxe4 Kd5 50.f5 Rg3 51.Rfe8 c4 52.f6 Rf3+ 53.Ke2 Rxf6 54.Kxe3 Rc6 55.Rd4+ Kc5 56.Rb8 Re6+ 57.Re4 Rxe4+ 58.Kxe4 Nf2+ 59.Kf3 Ng4 60.Rb5+ Kd4 61.Rxh5 c3 62.Ke2 1-0
GAME OVER thank you for playing	it is now 10:31:47
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1734 OF 1784 · Later Kibitzing>
Jul-30-08		kb2ct: The board is not completely symmetrical. GMT can play Ne5+ if we play Rxa5 and we have to play a waiting move before Rxe5. If we play Rxh5 he can't play Ne5+ because we can play Rxe5 right away 61. Rxh5 Ne5+ 62. Rxe5 1-0 61. Rxa5 Ne5+ 62. Ke2 c3 63. Rxe5 Kxe5 1-0) :0)

Jul-30-08		kb2ct: <whatthefat: <kb2ct: GMT is playing on because there is a draw trap.> Care to enlighten us as to what the 'draw trap' is?> This is what he is playing for. :0) 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nf3 d6 7. O-O c6 8. Qb3 Na6 9. Rd1 Kh8 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Re8 18. Bxg7+ Kxg7 19. Rbc1 Qe7 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. Na4 Nb5 22. Nb6 Ra6 23. Nxd7 Rxd7 24. Ne5 Rd6 25. f3 Nf6 26. a4 Nc7 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ne4 29. e3 Rb6 30. Bd3 Na6 31. b4 Nxb4 32. Bxe4 fxe4 33. Nd7 Rb7 34. Nc5 Ree7 35. Nxb7 Rxb7 36. g4 Rc7 37. Rc5 Ra7 38. h4 Ra6 39. Rcc1 Kf6 40. Rf1 Nd3 41. Rb1 h5 42. gxh5 gxh5 43. Rb8 c5 44. Rfb1 d4 45. Kf1 dxe3 46. Rf8+ Ke7 47. Rbb8 Rg6 48. Rbe8+ Kd6 49. Rxe4 Kd5 50. f5 Rg3 51. Rfe8 c4 52. f6 Rf3+ 53. Ke2 Rxf6 54. Kxe3 Rc6 55. Rd4+ Kc5 56. Rb8 Re6+ 57. Re4 Rxe4+ 58. Kxe4 Nf2+ 59. Kf3 Ng4 60. Rb5+ Kd4 61. Rxh5 c3 62. Ke2 Ne3 63. Rxa5 c2 64. Kd2 Nc4+ 65. Kxc2 Nxa5 0.00/59 click for larger view

Jul-30-08		MostlyAverageJoe: <kb2ct: Typo.....I meant he expects Rxh5 and will do a double take if we play Rxe5> Indeed, I agree that Rxe5 would merit a double take. Maybe a triple, even, considering that e5 is empty. Yeah, I know now what you meant, but just could not resist :-)

Jul-30-08		kb2ct: <MostlyAverageJoe:> No post complete without a typo. :0)

Jul-30-08		MostlyAverageJoe: <kb2ct: This is what he is playing for. ... 62. Ke2 Ne3 63. Rxa5 > Yes, here Rxa5 would be a huge mistake, but quite transparent. Deep Shredder with 5-M TBs gives it a (-0.01) eval right away. Hiarcs without tablebases wants to play 1. (+10.00) 63.Rg5 and evaluates initially Rxa5 as (+0.49) for some reason, and hits 0.00 after 28 plies in 2 minutes. And, of course, the entire drawing tactic takes about 5 plies, about the level of Monday/Tuesday puzzles. I find it hard to believe he'd be counting on that. But who knows. MAJ, not particularly convinced whether to play Rxa5 or Rxh5.

Jul-30-08		stukkenjager: I trust we play 61.Rxh5 after 60...,Kd4 There is no reason at all to go for the inferior 61.Rxa5. It would be a stain on a nice game if we start playing second-best moves.

Jul-30-08		Xenon Oxide: <stukkenjager: I trust we play 61.Rxh5 after 60...,Kd4 There is no reason at all to go for the inferior 61.Rxa5. It would be a stain on a nice game if we start playing second-best moves.> Erm, mate on move 66 vs mate on 63 isn't exactly something that will make the people going over this game say "what horrible play".

Jul-30-08		Xenon Oxide: While we're waiting for this game to end, I have a question: In the "post chess-engine" era of correspondence chess, has there been any top-level games that have ended in a tactical knockout or a quick win (within 30 moves)? Thanks.

Jul-30-08		stukkenjager: Erm, mate on move 66 vs mate on 63 isn't exactly something that will make the people going over this game say "what horrible play". True, well then why not play 61.Ke2 certainly not bad, scores about the same as Rxa5.

Jul-30-08		Domdaniel: Giving up Rook for Knight to reach a won pawn ending is elementary - it's the basic strategy in such positions. Therefore I like any line with RxN, (eg Rxe5 after Rxh5) - as long as the pawn ending is won, of course. Taking the Knight will be a resignation cue. But there are now many ways to win this, and I'm not going to worry about which one we choose.

Jul-30-08		krpvksprv: Can't believe GMT still playing at this point.

Jul-30-08		Waitaka: <MAJ, not particularly convinced whether to play Rxa5 or Rxh5> So, what happened with <This seems like wasting time. ALL OF THE MOVES have been solved to a mate A WEEK AGO.> ?

Jul-30-08		Xeeniner: <Waitaka> I think the debate's whether to go with Rxh5 and a quicker mate or Rxa5 and a quicker entry into a tablebase win.

Jul-30-08		kb2ct: Both Rxa5 and Rxh5 are easy wins. Both go above +8.00 at move 66. Rxa5 has more +4.00 tablebase traps which look like progress to a chess engine operating at +7.00 Rxh5 is the computer choice. Rxa5 is more human and tricky. I don't think I can explain it better. :0)

Jul-30-08		dotsamoht: I do not like letting him win the rook. It just seems morally wrong (and not fair to the rook). How about something like: 60... Kd4 61. Rxa5, c3 62. Ke2, Ne3 63. Rxh5, Nc4 64. Kd1, Nb2+ 65. Kc2, Nxa4 66. Rg5, Nb6 67. h5, Nd7 68. h6, Nf8 69. Rg7. Now he has to sac the knight for the pawn and we mate with the rook, an idea which feels morally right to me (and fair to the rook). Note in the final position if he plays 69... Ne6 (yeah, right... stupid... meaningless), then I will give up the rook, 70. h7, Nxg7 71. h8(Q), since we win the knight.

Jul-30-08		Waitaka: <Xeeniner: <Waitaka> I think the debate's whether to go with Rxh5 and a quicker mate or Rxa5 and a quicker entry into a tablebase win.> Yes, I understand this. And I understand that's why there is still a lot of analysis going on. And I really don't think this is a wast of time. At least, everyone is free to choose how to waste it's own time... :)

Jul-30-08		RookFile: You guys realize that I can barely contain my excitement, don't you? The winning move comes down to a choice of which rook pawn to take!

Jul-30-08		Gypsy: <Rxh5 is the computer choice. Rxa5 is more human and tricky.> Well, take it only for what it is worth. I do not use an engine and I have an affinity for end-games. To me, the most natural, human, OTB winning strategy for White is this: (1) Rxh5. (2) Work the square of the c-pawn with the king. (3) Swap RxN as soon as practicable. (4) Win the pawn end-game. It is a routine.

Jul-30-08		MostlyAverageJoe: <Waitaka: ... So, what happened with <This seems like wasting time. ALL OF THE MOVES have been solved>> Both Rx(a/h)5 moves are solved to a win. And recall I also said on your forum: <Thus, there is still value in further analysis, but probably no reason to spend time on it right away> Only aftet GMT played Ng4 (which seems to give us easier win than Nd1/Nd3) the Rx(a/h)5 choice became worth of considering (to me).

Jul-30-08		pferd: <stukkenjager: Erm, mate on move 66 vs mate on 63 isn't exactly something that will make the people going over this game say "what horrible play". True, well then why not play 61.Ke2 certainly not bad, scores about the same as Rxa5.> I know that "suggestion" is tongue-in-cheek, but I'll take the bait and answer it anyway: Our most direct win here is create a passed h-pawn, get the rook out of its way, and promote it. Taking the a-pawn is an irrelevant distraction.

Jul-30-08		Domdaniel: <Gypsy> -- <(1) Rxh5. (2) Work the square of the c-pawn with the king. (3) Swap RxN as soon as practicable. (4) Win the pawn end-game. It is a routine.> Absolutely. I couldn't put it any better myself, so I won't try.

Jul-30-08		kb2ct: This tablebase entry or quickest mate problem is unique to CC. For example what do we play in the following position? 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nf3 d6 7. O-O c6 8. Qb3 Na6 9. Rd1 Kh8 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Re8 18. Bxg7+ Kxg7 19. Rbc1 Qe7 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. Na4 Nb5 22. Nb6 Ra6 23. Nxd7 Rxd7 24. Ne5 Rd6 25. f3 Nf6 26. a4 Nc7 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ne4 29. e3 Rb6 30. Bd3 Na6 31. b4 Nxb4 32. Bxe4 fxe4 33. Nd7 Rb7 34. Nc5 Ree7 35. Nxb7 Rxb7 36. g4 Rc7 37. Rc5 Ra7 38. h4 Ra6 39. Rcc1 Kf6 40. Rf1 Nd3 41. Rb1 h5 42. gxh5 gxh5 43. Rb8 c5 44. Rfb1 d4 45. Kf1 dxe3 46. Rf8+ Ke7 47. Rbb8 Rg6 48. Rbe8+ Kd6 49. Rxe4 Kd5 50. f5 Rg3 51. Rfe8 c4 52. f6 Rf3+ 53. Ke2 Rxf6 54. Kxe3 Rc6 55. Rd4+ Kc5 56. Rb8 Re6+ 57. Re4 Rxe4+ 58. Kxe4 Nf2+ 59. Kf3 Ng4 60. Rb5+ Kd4 61. Rxh5 c3 62. Ke2 Ne3 63. Rg5 Ke4 click for larger view Do we grab the a-pawn? Do we play Ph5? Or do we play Re5+ Highest evaluation is Ph5. Quickest tablebase entry is Re5+ :0)

Jul-30-08		YouRang: <kb2ct><Do we grab the a-pawn? Do we play Ph5? Or do we play Re5+ > My feeling, for what it's worth, is to make the move that makes our win most obvious, even if it's not the fewest moves to mate. That is, I doubt GMT plans to play until checkmate. Rather, I think he will resign when he believes the position looks hopeless. So, I would probably opt for Ph5. :-)

Jul-30-08		Chessgames Challenge: 60...Kd4 click for larger view

Jul-30-08		chancho: He moved today. How about that?

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