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Mar-18-13
 | | Diademas: Since Ivanchuk lost on time, how come it was him that made the last move? |
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| Mar-18-13 | | Eyal: <Since Ivanchuk lost on time, how come it was him that made the last move?> The same thing happened in his loss to Radjaobv, and happens a lot in general. Apparently he made the move on the board, but was unable to stop his clock before the flag fell. So the DGT board, which doesn't "know" the clock situation, recorded the move. |
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Mar-18-13
| | Diademas: Thank you <Eyal>. I kind of arrived at that conclusion too. What Im not sure of is weather Chuckys last move should count.
Does anyone know what the rules say? |
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Mar-18-13
 | | harrylime: After 33..Qa3 I'm assuming Chucky's gotta let the knight go with something like 34.Qd2.. What's the take on this position ? |
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| Mar-18-13 | | Everett: <Just Another Master: At the press Conference it was sad to see Chucky....he was like crying...tears of vodka probably> Just curious, how many of these guys have therapists, cognitive/behavioral help, or some sort of life coach in their respective corners? I imagine it could help each of them quite a bit. |
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| Mar-18-13 | | Jim Bartle: According to Danny King (video on chessbase), Aronian knew that 25...Bxd4 26 cxd4 Rxb4 was winning, but he wanted to play more conservatively because of Ivanchuk's time trouble. |
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| Mar-18-13 | | Ulhumbrus: 8 Bxf6 concedes the bishop pair. After 8...Bxf6 White has no advantage, yet he starts an attack by h4. This is an attack based upon no advantage. It is unsound and can be forecast to fail. All this after 2 Bg5 suggests that Ivanchuk underestimated Aronian. In one way Ivanchuk may have the same mistake against Aronian as that which Carlsen made against Aronian in the game Carlsen vs Aronian, 2007 Ivanchuk, as did Carlsen, tried to simply surprise Aronian, and the attempt to surprise Aronian failed. As in the game Carlsen vs Aronian, 2007 it is possible that in all of the variations which Ivanchuk calculated he lacked one tempo needed for the attack to succeed, but this is a typical result of an unsound attack. The wiser course was probably to be content with a normal slight advantage from a conventional opening. Ivanchuk went too far trying to win, and lost. |
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| Mar-18-13 | | ajile: 9.h4
lol |
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| Mar-18-13 | | Eyal: Between Ivanchuk's opening play and time-management throughout the game, one might say that he started by shooting himself in the foot and ended by shooting himself in the head. |
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Mar-18-13
 | | tamar: <dunican> Ivanchuk has always been a "deep sea diver", and was searching the bottom for treasure long after his oxygen supply ran on red. 31 c4 is a "genius move", as either Malcolm Pein or Lawrence Trent said, not least because most players would give up on looking since 31 Qxe4 Rxe5! looks unavoidable. My point was that had he settled on moving quickly and saving 10 minutes for the end, he never would have found this resource. |
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| Mar-18-13 | | Karposian: <Eyal: Between Ivanchuk's opening play and time-management throughout the game, one might say that he started by shooting himself in the foot and ended by shooting himself in the head.> Yeah, well said. You know, playing the Trompowsky in a candidates tournament against a 2800-rated player like Aronian is very questionable to put it mildly. These lesser 1.d4 openings (i.e. the ones without 2.c4) are great at club level but in the candidates it seems crazy!
OK, if you are really an expert on it like, say, GM Julian Hodgson, you may get away with it, but this seemed just plain silly. I wonder what on earth he was thinking. What will he try next!? Colle system?? |
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| Mar-18-13 | | DcGentle: Well, it's amazing that Ivanchuk could have actually won this game with his attack whose first moves provoked general head shaking. But I was curious and White missed his chance after 10... g6:
click for larger viewWhite to move should have played 11. Qg4! The h5 attack on the queen will provoke a weakening of Black's kingside pawn structure. If you compare this with the actual game, it only was the wrong move order in the game. Here is my analysis:
[Event "FIDE Candidates"]
[Site "London ENG"]
[Date "2013.03.17"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Ivanchuk, V."]
[Black "Aronian, L."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A47"]
[WhiteElo "2757"]
[BlackElo "2809"]
[Annotator "Gentle,DC"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 e6 3. Nd2 c5 4. e3 b6 5. Ngf3 Bb7 6. c3 Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Bxf6 Bxf6 9. h4 Nc6 10. Ng5 g6 11. f4 (11. Qg4 Qe7 (11... h5 {is not as helpful as in the game:} 12. Qg3 Qb8 13. Nde4 Be7 (13... Bg7 14. Nd6 {seems to be ok, also 14. Qd6 is an option.}) 14. f4 cxd4 15. exd4 Qc7 16. Nf3 Rac8 17. O-O Qd8 18. Rae1 Na5 19. Neg5 {threatening 20. Bxg6.} Bxg5 20. fxg5 Qc7 21. Ne5 Nc6 22. Qf4 d6 23. Nxc6 Bxc6 24. Qf6 Bd5 25. g4 Qd8 26. gxh5 Qxf6 27. Rxf6 gxh5 28. a3 Kg7 29. Be2 Rh8 30. Ref1 Rc7 31. Bd3 a5 32. g6 {will win a pawn and most likely the ensuing endgame.}) 12. O-O d5 (12... d6 {is a bit better, because Black tries to keep the diagonal a8-h1 open for bishop b7. But White has good chances.} 13. f4 h6 14. Ngf3 h5 15. Qg3 Bg7 16. Ne4 Rad8 17. Rae1 Na5 18. Neg5 {Black cannot do much against this ongoing enhancement of White's attack.} Qd7 19. Qf2 Nc6 20. Qe2 Ne7 21. e4 Bc6 22. Rd1 f6 23. Nh3 Bb7 24. e5 cxd4 25. exf6 Bxf6 26. Bc4 Bd5 27. Bxd5 Nxd5 28. cxd4 Bg7 29. Qe4 Rf5 30. g3 Re8 31. Nhg5 Bh6 32. Qe2 Rf6 33. Rfe1 a5 34. Rc1 {and White has good chances to win.}) 13. f4 h6 14. Ngf3 cxd4 (14... h5 {is not much better:} 15. Qh3 Rab8 16. Ng5 Ba8 17. Ndf3 b5 18. a3 a5 19. g4 c4 20. Bc2 {threatening 21. gxh5.} hxg4 21. Qxg4 Bg7 22. Qh3 f5 23. Kf2 {clears g1 for a rook.} Qe8 24. Rg1 a4 25. Bd1 {25. h5 directly is also possible.} Rb7 26. h5 gxh5 27. Ne5 {with the lethal threat 28. Bxh5. Black is lost.}) 15. exd4 h5 16. Qh3 Bc8 17. Ne5 Nxe5 18. fxe5 Bxh4 19. Nf3 Bg5 20. Nxg5 Qxg5 21. Rf6 Bd7 22. Raf1 Qh6 23. Qf3 Qg7 24. Qg3 g5 {Now rook f6 will even further invade into Black's camp.} 25. Qf3 h4 26. Qh5 Be8 27. Bg6 h3 28. Qxh3 a6 29. Qh5 Rd8 30. Bc2 Bb5 31. R1f2 Rd7 32. Rh6 Rc8 33. Rh7 {winning Black's queen due to mate in 2 after 34... Qf8. Black can resign.}) 11... Ne7 12. Qg4 h5 13. Qh3 cxd4 14. exd4 b5 15. a3 Qb6 16. Rg1 Nd5 17. Nge4 Bg7 18. Qf3 b4 19. axb4 Nxb4 20. Nc4 Qb5 21. Ne5 Nxd3+ 22. Nxd3 Qf5 23. Ndc5 Bc6 24. b4 Rfb8 25. Ra5 a6 26. Qe3 Qg4 27. g3 Rb5 28. Rxa6 Rxa6 29. Nxa6 e5 30. dxe5 Bxe4 31. c4 Rb6 32. Qxb6 Qf3 33. Qf2 Qa3 34. Nc5 0-1 Enjoy!
<DC> |
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| Mar-18-13 | | Jim Bartle: Ivanchuk's h4 reminded me a little of Nakamura's early ...h5 against Carlsen at Wijk. Neither worked out well. |
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| Mar-19-13 | | dunican: <tamar> But already 31.c4 itself was played in the last-seconds rush, as Albert Silver comments for ChessBase: <31.c4 At this point, the times left for both players were five SECONDS for White, and 40 minutes for Black.> |
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Mar-19-13
| | tamar: <dunican> I watched the replay http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId... around 58 minutes Ivanchuk stretches back in his chair after 31 c4, which Trent and Pein interpreted as "take that Levon Aronian" but as Ivanchuk explained in the press conference, "I played 31 c4, it was a nice move, a beautiful move, but I understood Black could give me all his material and I would have no time..." Impossible to say from this when he saw the move, but perhaps it was when he played 24 b4, because he responded to the 29...e5 sequence instantly. |
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| Mar-19-13 | | morfishine: White had 5-seconds left at move 31? Holy Toledo, its worse than I thought... |
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Mar-19-13
 | | Richard Taylor: It seemed he resigned and wasn't (necessarily) lost. (Or did he lose on time?) But Aronian played some great attacking and complicating moves. He generated attacking ideas from nowhere. Under the resulting pressure Ivanchuk went wrong, and may have been better, but that is a familiar experience for me as well! It is the player who takes the most risks at times (like a Tal) who might win this match... |
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| Mar-19-13 | | DcGentle: Well, because someone told me that my analysis up the page is hard to read, here there is a more readable version. BTW, the above form and the following can be copied and pasted into any PGN-viewer (f.e. http://chesstempo.com/pgn-viewer.html) or chess program. [Event "FIDE Candidates"]
[Site "London ENGLAND"]
[Date "2013.03.17"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Ivanchuk, V."]
[Black "Aronian, L."]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2757"]
[BlackElo "2809"]
[ECO "A47"]
[Annotator "Gentle,DC"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 e6 3. Nd2 c5 4. e3 b6 5. Ngf3 Bb7 6. c3
Be7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. Bxf6 Bxf6 9. h4 Nc6 10. Ng5 g6 11. f4 (11. Qg4 Qe7
(11...h5 {<is not as helpful as in the game:>}
12. Qg3 Qb8 13. Nde4 Be7
(13...Bg7 14. Nd6 {<seems to be ok, also 14. Qd6 is an option.>}) 14. f4 cxd4 15. exd4 Qc7 16. Nf3 Rac8 17. O-O Qd8
18. Rae1 Na5 19. Neg5 {<threatening 20. Bxg6.>}
19...Bxg5 20. fxg5 Qc7 21. Ne5 Nc6 22. Qf4 d6 23. Nxc6
Bxc6 24. Qf6 Bd5 25. g4 Qd8 26. gxh5 Qxf6 27. Rxf6
gxh5 28. a3 Kg7 29. Be2 Rh8 30. Ref1 Rc7 31. Bd3 a5
32. g6 {< 
click for larger view
will win a pawn and most likely the ensuing endgame.>}) 12. O-O d5
(12...d6 {<is a bit better, because Black tries to
keep the diagonal a8-h1 open for bishop b7. But White
has good chances.>}
13. f4 h6 14. Ngf3 h5 15. Qg3 Bg7 16. Ne4 Rad8
17. Rae1 Na5 18. Neg5
{<Black cannot do much against this ongoing enhancement
of White's attack.>}
18...Qd7 19. Qf2 Nc6 20. Qe2 Ne7 21. e4 Bc6 22. Rd1
f6 23. Nh3 Bb7 24. e5 cxd4 25. exf6 Bxf6 26. Bc4 Bd5
27. Bxd5 Nxd5 28. cxd4 Bg7 29. Qe4 Rf5 30. g3 Re8
31. Nhg5 Bh6 32. Qe2 Rf6 33. Rfe1 a5 34. Rc1
{< 
click for larger view
and White has good chances to win.>}) 13. f4 h6 14. Ngf3 cxd4
(14...h5 {<is not much better:>}
15. Qh3 Rab8 16. Ng5 Ba8 17. Ndf3 b5 18. a3 a5
19. g4 c4 20. Bc2
{<threatening 21. gxh5.>}
20...hxg4 21. Qxg4 Bg7 22. Qh3 f5 23. Kf2
{<clears g1 for a rook.>}
23...Qe8 24. Rg1 a4 25. Bd1
{<25. h5 directly is also
possible.>}
25...Rb7 26. h5 gxh5 27. Ne5
{< 
click for larger view
with the lethal threat 28. Bxh5. Black is lost.>}) 15. exd4 h5 16. Qh3 Bc8 17. Ne5 Nxe5 18. fxe5 Bxh4
19. Nf3 Bg5 20. Nxg5 Qxg5 21. Rf6 Bd7 22. Raf1 Qh6
23. Qf3 Qg7 24. Qg3 g5
{<Now rook f6 will even further invade into Black's camp.>}
25. Qf3 h4 26. Qh5 Be8 27. Bg6 h3 28. Qxh3 a6 29. Qh5
Rd8 30. Bc2 Bb5 31. R1f2 Rd7 32. Rh6 Rc8 33. Rh7
{< 
click for larger view
winning Black's queen due to mate in 2 after 34... Qf8.
Black can resign.>})
11...Ne7 12. Qg4 h5 13. Qh3 cxd4 14. exd4 b5 15. a3 Qb6
16. Rg1 Nd5 17. Nge4 Bg7 18. Qf3 b4 19. axb4 Nxb4
20. Nc4 Qb5 21. Ne5 Nxd3+ 22. Nxd3 Qf5 23. Ndc5 Bc6
24. b4 Rfb8 25. Ra5 a6 26. Qe3 Qg4 27. g3 Rb5 28. Rxa6
Rxa6 29. Nxa6 e5 30. dxe5 Bxe4 31. c4 Rb6 32. Qxb6 Qf3
33. Qf2 Qa3 34. Nc5 0-1
. |
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| Mar-19-13 | | Eyal: <DcGentle> I find it extremely hard to believe that 11.Qg4 really leads to a forced win by White - it just doesn't look like Black has done so far anything on which he should be "punished" like that (unless the Torre Attack, or whatever one likes to call this opening, is a forced win for White anyway, in which case we might be getting close to solving chess...). Looking a bit at the position with the help of Houdini, it seems to me that 11...Bg7 followed by h6 (an immediate 11...h6 isn't good because of Nge4) is a better plan for Black against White's attack. One point is that in your main line, the black queen isn't very well placed on e7 - this square should be reserved for Nc6 (as in the game) in various lines, and the queen seems better off on the b8-h2 diagonal. Another is that if White doesn’t play f4 immediately then after h6 Ngf3 there no f4 and so Black can meet h5 with g5; and if [11…Bg7] 12.f4 there’s a rather forcing tactical line with 12…Ne7 13.h5 h6 14.Ngf3 Nd5 which seems to end ok for Black. |
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| Mar-19-13 | | DcGentle: <Eyal>: Well, you are right, to proof a forced win might be hard, but I wanted to show that there is no reason to laugh about Ivanchuk's attack. How about this line?
1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 e6 3. Nd2 c5 4. e3 b6 5. Ngf3 Bb7 6. c3 Be7 7.
Bd3 O-O 8. Bxf6 Bxf6 9. h4 Nc6 10. Ng5 g6 11. Qg4 h5 12. Qg3 Qb8
13. Nde4 Bg7 14. Qd6
click for larger viewWhite is exerting pressure
cxd4 15. exd4 f6 16. Qxd7 fxg5 17. Qxe6+ Kh8
18. O-O Qe8 19. Qxe8 Raxe8 20. Nd6 Re7 21. Nxb7 Rxb7 22. hxg5 Kh7
23. Rae1 Re7 24. Rxe7 Nxe7 25. Re1 Nf5 26. Re6 Rf7 27. f3 Rd7 28.
g3 Ne7 29. Kg2 Bf8 30. Rf6 Rd8 31. f4 Kg7 32. Kf3 Rc8 33. Be4 b5
34. a3 Rc7 35. g4 hxg4+ 36. Kxg4
click for larger viewWhite seems to to fine with his 3 surplus pawns vs. Black's surplus knight. |
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| Mar-19-13 | | Eyal: <DcGentle> Oh, I agree that the Bxf6-h4 idea in itself shouldn't be automatically derided (just like Nakamura's h5 in that game he recently lost to Carlsen in Tata). But Ivanchuk was clearly improvising here and didn't manage to find otb the accurate way to handle the attack, so that by move 15 he already seems to be clearly inferior and after 16.Rg1 practically lost if Black plays accurately. That's, at least, what I was thinking about when I said in a previous post that Ivanchuk "shot himself in the foot". |
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| Mar-19-13 | | DcGentle: <Eyal>: Yes, I agree, unfortunately he was not prepared, and the audience, who was hoping for a home cooked line, was really disappointed. Too bad. Today it's nearly a must that home preparation is supported by computer assistance, and from an earlier interview I know that Ivanchuk doesn't like computers so much.. it's a pity. We must wait and see, how Ivanchuk will perform in his remaining matches, but I am not very optimistic here. |
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| Mar-19-13 | | dehanne: Considering Aronian's comments after the game he lost to Anand at Tata and his general tendency to go down in flames quickly after being faced with a strong novelty (for example, the famous Queen's Indian game with Topalov), I do not think he prepares much either. |
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| Mar-19-13 | | Eyal: <Aronian's comments after the game he lost to Anand at Tata> Saying that he "should study openings better"? That was some self-deprecating humor - usually Aronian is fantastically prepared. But when you play sharp, topical lines you're almost inevitably going to get hit by super-strong prep once in a while, like Aronian did in that game vs. Anand (and I seriously doubt if anyone else would have held in similar circumstances). Or you can just stay away from such lines - like Carlsen does. |
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| Mar-23-13 | | wilbeerthoven: Masterpiece! |
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