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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Nov-10-09
 | | HeMateMe: He is the 40 year old guy that Danailov says 'doesn't play with energy anymore.' Well, if you have analysed well enough before a game, and i think Vishy has this worked out almost to the final position, then who needs to play a lot of tournaments? he seems to get very nice results with his 'home cooking.' |
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Nov-10-09
 | | tpstar: The strong Bh5 is remarkably similar to Kasimdzhanov vs Anand, 2005 Kudos to Leko for going down this sharp road, but Anand was thoroughly prepared and convincingly won. <ANAND is the undisputed #1>. Agreed. And to think only yesterday people were questioning his motivation. |
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| Nov-10-09 | | Ulhumbrus: On 23...Rf6 24 Qe1 Bd5 25 Re7+ Kg8 26 axb5 Qd6 27 Bg4 prevents ...Re6 and threatens 28 Rd7 followed by 29 Qe5 if Black does nothing to prevent it eg 27...d3 28 Rd7 Qc5 29 Qe5 |
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Nov-10-09
 | | Jimfromprovidence: <Hesam7> <Can't black improve on move 30? I remember engines disliking 30. ... Kh8.> I didn't like 30...Kh8 either. If he was worried about 31 Ra7+, then 30...Rc7 looks better. 
click for larger viewIf he was concerned about 31 Ra6, then 30...Rc7 is still good. After 31 Ra6, then 31...Qxa6 32 Qxf5+ Kg8, which looks like a perpetual. 
click for larger viewAfter 30...Rc7 31 Ra8 (threatening 32 Qg8#) 31...Be6. 
click for larger view |
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| Nov-10-09 | | Eyal: <Hesam7> Yes, it's quite amazing... I suppose Black can improve (for example, Rybka suggests 30...Rc7 with "only" +0.65), but maybe only in the sense that he would lose more slowly - his position already looks poor in any case; Anand seemed quite convinced that he's basically lost - in long-term evaluations here I think I would trust Anand rather than a single Rybka line. At any rate, if 23...Rf6 really equalizes then I suppose we won't see this 22.Nxd4 line again, at least on the high levels. Btw, Leko probably had some deep prep of his own - I wonder how he intended to improve on Kramnik-Aronian had Anand repeated 22.b4... (and yes, <23...Rf6 24 Qe1 Bd5 25 Re7+ Kg8 26 Re8+ Qxe8 27 Bxe8 Re6 [followed by Raxe8]> - Black has at least R+B+P [maybe 2 - not sure if he can hold on to all of his own] for the queen, a rather solid position, and the advanced d-pawn might become dangerous; if 26.axb5 Qd6 27.Bg4 of course not 27...d3?? 28.Rd7; 27...Rf7 looks most reasonable) |
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| Nov-10-09 | | Eyal: Btw, in the chesspro link I provided earlier Zagrebelny gives the following line, to show what can happen after <30...Rc7>: 31.b4 d3 32.Ra8 Rg7 (to defend g8) 33.Re8 Qa1+ 34.Kh2 Qf6 (Black is in near zugzwang) 35.Re5 Bg6 36.Bxg6+ Rxg6 37.Qxb5 d2 38.Qd7+ Rg7 39.Qd3+ Kh8 40.Rd5, adding the comment that Black can't develop any real counterplay because of the weakness of the king. |
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Nov-10-09
| | Jimfromprovidence: The Rybka line that <Eyal> refers to that gives a .65 pawn advantage to white, I assume came from Chessok.com. http://www.chessok.com/broadcast/?k... It’s rather lengthy, at 22 ply.
<30... Rc7 !?31. Ra8 Be6 32. Qd6 Rd7 33. Qc6 Re7 34. Ra6 Kg7 35. Qxb5 f3 36. Bxf3 Rc7 37. Rc6 Rxc6 38. Qxc6 d3 39. Qc7+ Bf7 40. Qd7 Qxb2 41. Qxd3 Qa1+ Rybka Aquarium (0:10.47) +0.65|d19 white stands slightly better)> 
click for larger viewThe position looks like a dead draw. |
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| Nov-10-09 | | Eyal: Here's another anti-30...Rc7 line given by Dennis Monokroussos, which seems more effective than the above Rybka line: <At first the computer thinks 30...Rc7 is good enough for equality, but with a little patience we can demonstrate otherwise. 31.Ra8! Be6 32.Qd6! (32.Qxb5 g4! [that's a basic defensive idea that Anand mentioned in his presentation as something White should be careful about - 33.hxg4?? Rc1+ 34.Kh2 Qh4#] 33.Qb8 Qe5! 34.hxg4 Rc1+ 35.Kh2 Qxb8 36.Rxb8 Kg7 37.Rb6 Kf6 38.Bg6 Ke5= ) 32...Rd7 33.Qc6 [keeping the bishop under the pin, aiming for Bg4/Ra6] Re7 34.Ra6 d3 35.Qd6 Kg7 36.Bg4 d2 37.Qxd2 Qe5 38.Bxe6 Rxe6 39.Qd7+ Kf6 40.Rxe6+ Qxe6 41.Qxb5  > (http://www.thechessmind.net/storage...) (Here the extra pawn is the b-passer; also, instead of 40.Rxe6+, my engine suggests 40.Ra8 with all sorts of Q+R maneuvers against Black's exposed king as even stronger) |
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| Nov-10-09 | | micartouse: <Jaideepblue: Anand on 22. Nxd4! "Kasimdzhanov deserves credit for the Nxd4 move. It all comes down to the opening. If you know the knight idea you can hold it, but I think it's almost impossible for Black to solve it at the board." (Courtesy: Chessvibes)>
I say this line has pretty much gone the way of the Najdorf Poison Pawn. |
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| Nov-10-09 | | yalie: <Eyal: Anand reviewes the game - in English - at http://video.russiachess.org/browse... (starting from 18:05:00 for about 8 minutes, but the sound quality is simply terrible).> Do you know how to forward to the relevant time? I am not able to forward at all:( Thanks. |
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Nov-10-09
| | Jimfromprovidence: <Eyal> , You've referenced three different lines so far after 30... Rc7, the Rybka line, the Chesspro line and the Chessmind line. They are all over 20 ply long. The Rybka line shows a likely draw. The Chessmind line (which is an offshoot of the Rybka line) along with your suggested alterations below, gives the following position with black to play. <Here the extra pawn is the b-passer; also, instead of 40.Rxe6+, my engine suggests 40.Ra8 with all sorts of Q+R maneuvers against Black's exposed king as even stronger)> 
click for larger viewUnless there is a mistake from this point on, it looks like another drawn position. |
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| Nov-11-09 | | pawn to QB4: Hi Jim; whatever the engines say, I'd imagine that's a position that's very difficult for Black to hold against a player of his or her own class...which is all Anand needed in the game. I wonder if the engines give us unrealistic expectations, and cost us some of the fun. Example, when Anand played 22.Nxd4 a couple of us were very enthusiastic...a passing computer and its kibitzer instantly summed it up as "dead...0.00". I feel they missed out. |
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| Nov-11-09 | | Eyal: <yalie> What I did was to press the "play" arrow, enlarge the picture that I get to a full-screen, and then, when I get the "time line" from 14:00:00 to the end, mark with the arrow the point that I want. [Not sure if it's worth the trouble anyway - as I said, you can barely hear what he's saying...] <Jimfromprovidence: The Chessmind line (which is an offshoot of the Rybka line) along with your suggested alterations below, gives the following position with black to play [...] Unless there is a mistake from this point on, it looks like another drawn position.> First of all, Monokroussos' line ends with 40.Rxe6+ Qxe6 41.Qxb5: 
click for larger viewHere, like I said, White's extra pawn is a passer (unlike the Rybka line where all the remaining pawns are on the K-side), so it's a likely win in the long run - even though queen endgames are notoriously tedious to execute because of all the checks the defending side can usually put in. Secondly, the position in your diagram (resulting from my own suggested 40.Ra8) is actually a definite win for White with accurate play, though perhaps you have to be an engine in order to see that... a full demonstration would be extremely elaborate, because there are many sidelines and in some of them the win becomes absolutely clear only around move 55, but the basic reason is obvious - the exposed position of the black king. I'll give just the first moves of Fritz's main line with my "interpretation": 40...Re7 [to prevent Qh7] 41.Qc8 [threatening Qf8+ followed by Ra6+ and preventing the defensive move Qe6 because of Ra6] Re6 42.Kh2! [White wants to play the "quiet" Qg8, but an immediate 42.Qg8? would lead to 42...Qe1+ 43.Kh2 Qxf2 and because of Black's mating threat White has to force a draw by perpetual] - and now Black has no longer any good defense against Qg8 followed by an elaborate king-hunt. |
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Nov-11-09
| | Jimfromprovidence: <pawn to QB4> <Hi Jim; whatever the engines say, I'd imagine that's a position that's very difficult for Black to hold against a player of his or her own class...which is all Anand needed in the game. I wonder if the engines give us unrealistic expectations, and cost us some of the fun.> The sole reason I commented on this game was because of the assertion that after black's 23rd move, the match was "lost". A 22 move combination (Chess Ok’s Rybka line) that yields a 2/3 pawn advantage after an improved 30th move by black seems to support the assertion that the game was immensely more complicated than that. That being said, I thoroughly enjoyed the game and white’s brilliant play.
I did especially appreciate the two moves 29 and 30; move 29 because of its numerous subtle threats and the follow-up 30 h3, which activates the rook. <Eyal> <I'll give just the first moves of Fritz's main line with my "interpretation": 40...Re7> Thanks for all of your comments. Regarding your line above... did you consider 40…Kg6 instead, where black would try to hide the king on h5?
click for larger view |
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| Nov-11-09 | | Eyal: <Jim> in case of 40...Kg6, White wins by 41.Rg8+ Kh5 42.Qf7+ Kh4 43.Rg6 Rxg6 44.Qxg6 h5 45.Kh2! g4 46.hxg4 etc. (or 45...b4 46.Qe4! Qxe4 47.g3+ and mate; or 45...Qxb2 46.Qb6! b4 [46...g4 47.Qd8+] 47.Qd4! and g3#). There's another nice line a couple of moves later, if Black tries 42...Kg6 after 40...Re7 41.Qc8 Re6 42.Kh2: 43.Qg8+ Kh5 44.Qf7+ Kh4 45.Rg8 Rf6 46.Rg6! Rxf7 47.Rxh6#; or 45...Qe4 (to defend g6) 46.g3 and mate; or 44...Rg6 45.Ra6 Qe4 46.b4! (zugzwang - the black queen is forced to leave e4) Qd3 47.Qe8 Qc2 48.Rxg6 Qxg6 49.Qe2+ g4 50.Qe5+ Qg5 51.Qe8+ Qg6 52.hxg4+ Kg5 53.Qe5+ Kxg4 54.f3+ Kh4 55.Qxf4+ with mate to follow. |
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| Nov-11-09 | | The Chess Express: It surprises me that Leko decided to play the Semi-Slav against Anand who is probably the world's foremost authority on it. |
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| Nov-11-09 | | Hesam7: <30. ... Rc7>
@Eyal, Jimfromprovidence
I think the line given by Rybka is very unconvincing because it lands in a drawn endgame. The line given by Dennis Monokroussos is even less so because after 30. ... Rc7 31. Ra8 Be6 32. Qd6 Rd7 33. Qc6 Re7 34. Ra6 he deviates from Rybka line with a new move for Black not White. Zagrebelny's 31. b4 looks like a better try since it fixes the weakness in b5. Still in this case through analysis is needed since Black has a number of choices besides 31. ... d3. |
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| Nov-11-09 | | Eyal: <Hesam7: <30. ... Rc7> The line given by Dennis Monokroussos is even less [convincing] because after 30. ... Rc7 31. Ra8 Be6 32. Qd6 Rd7 33. Qc6 Re7 34. Ra6 he deviates from Rybka line with a new move for Black not White.> I've noticed that, but I don't think that's a real problem. Monokroussos' line has <34.Ra6 d3 35.Qd6 Kg7>, and Rybka's line has <34.Ra6 Kg7 35.Qxb5 f3>; now, the problem with Rybka's line is that 35.Qxb5? allows 35...f3! and 36...Rc7, releasing White's pressure (a very subtle tactical nuance); instead, the right move for White is 35.Bg4! and in reply Black has nothing better than 35...d3, so that after 36.Qd6 d2 we get Monokroussos' line by a different move order. |
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| Nov-12-09 | | Hesam7: @Eyal thanks.
For some games I think the analysis scattered in kibitzes is on the same level as the annotations in the informator if not better. |
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| Nov-13-09 | | ajile: <The Chess Express: It surprises me that Leko decided to play the Semi-Slav against Anand who is probably the world's foremost authority on it.> I was thinking the same thing. Why play this type of opening against someone better at it than you? |
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| Nov-13-09 | | Red October: To me the Anand of 2000 on and the Anand of the 1990's are very different players.. maybe I am in a minority view here but his play brings a whole new feeling and emotion when I play through his games now than his games of the 1990s Im not saying this because he is winning but the energy in his positions feels a lot different |
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Nov-13-09
 | | tamar: <Red October> Maybe the difference between a natural player, and one who has transformed himself into a learned one as well. From recent interviews Anand is embracing computer analysis, and using his quick synapses to outprepare his opponents. Or do you think his style has actually changed? |
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| Nov-13-09 | | Eyal: <From recent interviews Anand is embracing computer analysis> Yeah, for example the following bit:
<Frederic Friedel, the founder of ChessBase, the world's largest chess software company, recalls a visit to Anand's analysis room at Bonn. "There was the hum of all kinds of computers, not a book in sight. It looked like Mission Control in Houston," he says. "I asked Vishy, 'don't you miss the good old days, where we'd sit around with a few books and a board?' He said, 'no, no. I have reverse nostalgia. I keep thinking why didn't I have all this when I started!'"> (http://business.outlookindia.com/ar...) I also remember that during the Bonn match, Karpov said in an interview that he thinks Anand has become more mechanical thanks to his work with computers - maybe he plays more accurately, but he has lost some fantasy, some creativity. One doesn't have to accept the value judgment implied here, of course, but he may have sensed something related to the change <Red October> is talking about. |
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| Nov-13-09 | | Red October: the thing is IMHO Anand used to try and simplify / clarify in complicated positions, now he doesnt he tries to bring pressure by keeping is complex.. |
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| Jun-08-10 | | bambino3: 35. Bg6 looks really annoying |
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Kibitzing
sac: 22.Nxd4
