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| Aug-27-09 | | Patriot: <Athamas> Good question! There's a general principle that suggests when ahead material, trade pieces (not pawns) and usually you want to trade pieces of higher value first. Maybe this is why white chose to trade rooks. Other than that, I don't have a clue but maybe only raw calculation can answer this question. <Life Master AJ>...Can you answer this? Which endgame is better and why? |
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Aug-27-09
 | | doubledrooks: I got most of the problem, but missed that after 25. Ng6+ Nxg6 26. Nxe6+ Kf7 27. Nxd4 Kg8 the white rook can't move to h4 to protect the knight as the black knight covers that square. So, partial credit for me. |
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Aug-27-09
 | | Jimfromprovidence: As a side issue, what if black plays 24...Kg8 instead of 24...Rxd4?
click for larger viewBlack sees either 25...Bf6 or 25...Ne2+.
Does white still have an advantage? |
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| Aug-27-09 | | kevin86: Interesting pair of forks-salad fork followed by meat fork. |
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| Aug-27-09 | | YouRang: Phfft. I went with 25.g3, thinking that it would go: 25...Bxe5 26.gxf4 26...Bxf4, and then I would have 27.Nxe6+, forking the K+R. But there were 2 problems:
(1) I don't have 27.Nxe6+ because 26...Bxf4 was check! (not the first time a wonderful combination I had imagined was ruined because I failed to notice a check). (2) Even if it weren't check, it wasn't so wonderful anyway. I peeked at 25.Ng6+, but didn't grasp the significance of the bishop being pinned after 25...Bf7. :-( Basically, the whole combination just wins a pawn and sweeps off a bunch pieces. But it's a huge pawn because it gives white decisive connected passed pawns, and sweeping off the pieces makes the win much easier to realize. |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Athamas: 25. Kc2 then if 25...Rxd4, you still have Ng6. If Nxg6, Rxg7+ Kxg7, Nxe6+ |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Athamas: Although if 25. Kc2 Bf6, it looks a lot trickier because if Rxb7 Bxg5, the knight can't take the pawn because of the pin, so I think 25. Kb1 Bf6 26. Rxb7 Bxg5 27. Nxc6
Looks like it's worth the piece to me, but it's a lot more complicated than the text |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Athamas: I don't think black has a chance to do anything but draw in that line... white should have a couple of passed pawns, possibly an isolated pawn or two on the kingside if he gets lucky |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Blackreptile: 29.Ne6+ and 30.Nd8 looks to me a best Knight ending for white than the game.
OK black play Nf4 and win one pawn too.But Black strucure is so weak. Am I right or not? |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Shubes82: <Patriot: <Athamas>> If you are talking about why a rook endgame wasn't entered into with moves like: 28. Rxg7+ Kxe6
29. Rxg6
Where white is up two connected passed pawns in a rook endgame, i'm puzzled by that as well. Can anyone provide a high level theorectical answer as to why that isnt as good as the line played int he game? |
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Aug-27-09
| | Jimfromprovidence: <Athamas> <Although if 25. Kc2 Bf6, it looks a lot trickier because if Rxb7 Bxg5, the knight can't take the pawn because of the pin, so I think
25. Kb1 Bf6 26. Rxb7 Bxg5 27. Nxc6
Looks like it's worth the piece to me, but it's a lot more complicated than the text.> After 24...Kg8 25. Kb1 Bf6 26. Rxb7 Bxg5 27. Nxc6, if 27...Rd6 28 Nxa7 Rxd4, it looks drawish. 
click for larger viewI am curious though, if it's better to be up a piece at the expense of three pawns in this particular position. |
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Aug-27-09
| | ajk68: <Shubes82> The problem with the rook endgame when you are only a pawn up is that they are almost always a draw. Assume white simplifies into a simple R+P vs. R endgame. Which pawn does white keep? It is unlikely that white can end up with a pawn on the queenside (where black has a 2-3 majority and the beginning of the endgame). On the kingside, he has to keep the bishop pawn - otherwise a draw by passive defense is easy (king on short side, rook on long side). But the draw is also easy if white can't get the bishop pawn to the 6th rank - via philidor's position. I think black is aided by the fact that the white king is cut-off from the kingside. With that said, I have no idea what the most accurate play is for both sides. I think the general principle is that the black king should stay on the kingside (short side). Black should aim to pick off the bishop pawn on the kingside - probably in exchange for black's extra pawn on the queenside. If there is any GM out there, I think it would be very instructional for many of us to have the exact drawing plan explained! In these types of positions, I think I know where I want to end up, but I don't know how to force a simplification to a known drawing position. There are just too many possibilities. |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Athamas: Yeah, I think it's a draw with the pawns vs bishop too... was just the only thing I saw You see a different line that may be better for white? |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Athamas: That makes sense to me ajk68, especially with the white king still cut off from his king-side pawns. Would black simply move his king in front down to meet the pawns and keep the white king cut off from them with his rook? |
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Aug-27-09
| | ajk68: I don't think black can keep the white king cut-off forever. My guess is white can use his rook to get access to the file. It is hard for black to maintain control of file. Certainly, black cannot trade down rooks until one of the connected passers is eliminated. So white can pretty much contest any file at will until one of the passers is gone. |
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| Aug-27-09 | | Athamas: I don't see how the white king gets to the kingside after Rd5. Black king just lines up in front of the pawn the white rook gets behind and should be able to deal with them, or is that wrong? |
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| Aug-27-09 | | birthtimes: ajk68, if you are wondering what the game plan is if White has a 2-3 pawn minority on the queenside with a single unopposed White pawn on the kingside, and if Black's king is on the kingside and White king is on the queenside, with each side having just one rook, then... If White can attack Black's queenside majority of pawns with his rook, and can thereby eventually create a 2-1 White majority of pawns on the queenside, then he can sacrifice the lone kingside pawn because of the Black king being on the kingside, with the White king being on the queenside. For example, if White has pawns on a3, b2, and f2, with King on c1 and rook on h7 and Black has pawns on a7, b7, c6, with King on g8 and rook on e2 then 1. Rxb7 a5 2. Ra7 Rxf2 3. Rxa5 Kf7 4. Re5 and White should win due to his outside passed a-pawn and better king position...but if Black can get his king over in front of the White pawns, then it will most likely be drawn. John Emms goes over these types of endgame concepts in his wonderful book entitled, "The Survival Guide to Rook Endgames." |
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| Aug-27-09 | | wals: [Event "USSR"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1988.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lputian"]
[Black "Yuri Dokhoian"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D31"]
[WhiteElo "2574"]
[BlackElo "2580"]
[Annotator "Rybka 3 1-cpu (30m)"]
[PlyCount "115"]
[EventDate "1988.??.??"]
{D36: Queen's Gambit Declined: Exchange Variation:
23. Rxh7 White has a
mate threat Kf8 24. Ng5 Rxd4 ? dubious (24... Kg8 would allow ♗lack to play on
25. Kc2 Bf6 ) 25. Ng6+ Deflection: g7 Nxg6 26. Nxe6+ Kf7 27. Nxd4
Kg8 28. Rxg7+ $1 the knock-out blow Kxg7 29. g3 Kf6 (29... Ne5 30. f4 Nd3+
31. Kc2 ) 30. f4 c5 (30... Ne7 31. Kd2 ) 31. Nb5 a6 (31... Kf5 32. Nxa7
Kg4 33. Nb5 Kxg3 34. f5 ) 32. Nd6 b6 33. Kd2 Ne7 34. Kd3 Ke6 35. Ne4 Kf5
a4 (36. Nf2 Nd5 ) 36... Nc6 (36... Nc8 ) 37. Nd6+ Ke6 38. Ne8 (38. Nc4 b5
39. axb5 axb5 ) 38... Kd7 (38... Nb4+ 39. Ke4 Ke7 40. Ng7 ) 39. Nf6+ Ke6
40. Ne8 (40. Ng4 Ne7 41. Ne3 Nc8 ) 40... Kd7 41. Nf6+ Twofold repetition
Ke6 42. Ne4 (42. Ng4 Ne7 43. Ne3 Nc8 ) 42... Kf5 43. Nc3 Nd4 (43... Ne7 44.
Kc4 Kg4 45. Ne4 ) 44. Kc4 (44. Nd5 b5 ) 44... Kg4 $2 (44... Nc6 45.
Nd5 Na5+ 46. Kd3 ) 45. Ne4 (45. Nd5 might be the shorter path b5+ 46. axb5
axb5+ 47. Kxc5 Ne6+ 48. Kxb5 Kxg3 ) 45... Nc2 (45... Nc6 46. Nd6 ) 46.
Kd5 Nb4+ (46... Ne3+ does not win a prize 47. Kc6 Kf5 48. Nd6+ 49. b3
) 47. Ke6 Nc2 48. Nd6 Nd4+ 49. Kd5 Kh5 (49... a5 does not help much 50. f5
a brilliant end Kh5 51. f6 ) 50. Nc4 b5 (50... Ne2 doesn't get the cat
off the tree 51. Nxb6 Nxg3 52. Kxc5 Ne4+ 53. Kd5 ) 51. axb5 axb5 52. Ne5
Nb3 (52... Ne2 cannot change destiny 53. g4+ Kh4 54. f5 ) 53. g4+ Kh6 (
53... Kh4 hardly improves anything 54. g5 Nd4 55. b4 ) 54. g5+ Kh5 (54...
Kh7 55. f5 Nc1 ) 55. Ke6 Nd2 56. g6 Kh6 57. Kf7 Ne4 58. g7 (58. g7 Ng5+ 59.
fxg5+ Kxg5 60. g8=Q+ Kf4 61. Ke6 Ke3 62. Qg2 c4 63. Kd5 c3 64. bxc3 b4 65. cxb4
Kf4 66. Kd4 Kf5 67. Qg6+ Kf4 68. Qg4#) 1-0
The above may be of interest to those seeking help. |
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| Aug-27-09 | | BOSTER: First, it is useful to notice,that moving knight to e6 you can fork king f8, bishop g7 and rook d4.
But the pawn e6 is protected by knight f4.
It means we have to remove or deflect the defender knight on f4.
And here 25. Ng6+ deflecton 25...Nxg6
26. Rxg7 Kxg7
27.Nxe6 Kf7
28.Nxd4 and white ahead by pawn.This is a petite combination.
Then I decided "Let's check" and opened the game. Here I "discovered" very fast that I was wrong.
Now I saw a subtlety- after 26. Rxg7 (in my line) black are not obliged 26...Kxg7- they have a fine " in between" move 26...Rc4, saving the rook.
My idea was correct,but the implementation was wrong (another moves order!)
Moral:Always try to see "in between" move. |
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| Aug-27-09 | | WhiteRook48: missed it |
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| Aug-27-09 | | kb2ct: Not the best technique.
28. Rxg7+ Kxg7 29. Ne6+ 30. Nd8 Nf4 31. Nxb7 Nxg2 32. Nd8 c5 33. a4 was much better and faster. All black's pawns are targets and will fall. The extra c-pawn will serve as decoy in the final stages. :0) |
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| Aug-27-09 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: <David2009> wrote <<snip>A perfect encapsulation of the winning method, try it out against Crafty: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...<snip>> Thanks for the comments and thanks for the resource. In fact, I messed up the ending against Crafty a couple times before I got it right. Rather than place the WR behind a passsed pawn immediately, it worked better to offer an exchange of rooks on d1 first. It seems that best play should lead to K+R+ 2 connected passed against K+R+1 pawn on opposite wing - a theoretical win. All this proved that I need to work on R&P endings. |
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Aug-28-09
| | ajk68: <birthtimes>: That might suggest a plan for white, but the game you describe is nothing like the one that would result if the game in discussion had simplified to a rook ending. The if white can create a 2-1 pawn majority is an awfully big caveat (especially, if you meant white has to have the pawn majority before sacrificing the kingside pawn - as opposed to exchanging a kingside pawn for a queenside pawn). From the game position 27. Rxg7 Kxe6 28. Rxg6, it is not clear how white could get at the queenside pawns (clearly Rxb7 is not available). Also, the black king is somewhat more centralized than your example of being on g8. Not be antagonizing, but I think the plan you present for white entails black rolling over and playing dead. Do you have any suggestions from the position of move 28... ? |
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Aug-28-09
| | ajk68: <Athamas>: I think white can control the d-file by offering an exchange of rooks while the connected passers are still on the board. Black cannot exchange the rooks and so must surrender control of the file. |
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Aug-31-09
 | | LIFE Master AJ: Did anyone else think this was a bit too easy for a Thursday?!?!??? |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 25.Ng6+