|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-20-08 | | Slurpeeman: First!
|
|
| Sep-20-08 | | ReikiMaster: 17..Rc8 is the most natural move threatening mate on a2 after Rxc3. I guess the difficulty here is finding any defense for white. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | ToTheDeath: Pretty simple first move, the rest wasn't that hard either. Whoever rates these is out to lunch. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | Terry McCracken: First to give a line.
17..Rc8 18.a3 Nxc2 19.Rxc2 Rxc3 20.bxc3 Qxc3 21.Qc1 Qb3+ 22.Ka1 Bxc2 23.Qb2 Qxb2+ 24.Kxb2 And the ending is won for Black;) |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | dzechiel: Black to move (17...?). Black is down a pawn (looks like it was just captured on h6). "Very Difficult." I see a lot of stuff, but, so far, nothing compelling. I think it's time for me to list some candidates and see if that helps. - 17...Nxa2
- 17...Nxc2
- 17...Nd3
- 17...Bxc2+
- 17...gxh6
- 17...g5
- 17...Be7
- 17...O-O-O
- 17...d4
- 17...Bg6
- 17...Rc8
Well, the only moves above that I like even a little bit are - 17...d4 and
- 17...O-O-O
The problem with 17...O-O-O is that it allows 18 Qxf7 and the threat of 19 Qxe6+, which would then protect a2. At least after 17...d4 18 Qxd4 black can activate his bishop with 18...Bc5 or his rook with 18...Rd8. Perhaps it's
17...O-O-O 18 Qxf7 d4 19 Qxe6+ Rd5 20 a3 dxc3 21 axb4 Qxb4 and white is in a heap of trouble. I'm pretty sure this isn't the line, but I also am sure that I have no idea what's going on in this position. Time to check and see what was played. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | Gilmoy: My first few candidates were:
- <brief pause ...>
- 17..Rc8 <canonical exchange sac>- 17..Nxc2 -- quickly blah
- 17..Bxc2+ -- quickly blah
- <brief pause ...>
- 17..Nd3 18.cxd3 Bxd3+ 19.Ka1 -- blah
After about 1 minute, 17..Rc8 was the only move I still hadn't quick-rejected yet. Most of my blitz wins vs. long castling involve a Rook on open or half-open c, so it's a reflex, not even a plan requiring calculation. Heck, Morphy would call it development. |
|
Sep-20-08
 | | al wazir: Son of a gun! I got it (anyway, the first four moves). |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | zooter: In the game line, what happens after 21.Qb2? Is the continuation still similar to the game line? |
|
Sep-20-08
 | | Jimfromprovidence: I don’t think it was that easy. The combination forces the win of only one pawn. The toughest part is how does black go about to win more material. After 27 Kb3 the position is below. 
click for larger viewFor example, black must be careful not to play 27… Bxf2? This move allows 28 Rc1, threatening Rc8+, winning the rook. Now, after 28…Kd7, 29 Rf1. Black loses a pawn after 29…Bc5 30 Rxf7+. 
click for larger view |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | chessdude2: Got it! Although only the first four moves…
17…R-B1
18. P-R3 NxP!
19. RxN RxN!
20. PxR QxBP
The pinning B-KR2 and RxN sac are the themes here.
|
|
| Sep-20-08 | | blacksburg: hmmm. ...Rc8 is the move i would have played over the board, without even calculating very much. but i rejected it as a solution because this was supposed to be very difficult. hmmm. yay carokann! |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | HelaNubo: Quiet moves can also be considered brilliant sometimes, but 17... Rc8 is a plain move that everyone - myself included - could play OTB; I failed it as I was looking for a brilliancy. Perhaps the position after 18. a3 is more apt for a puzzle. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | Chris1Clark: I might be awake today saw the threat and got the first few moves sorted but got lost as there where lots of lines. What happened to my hero dzechiel though. Not good day at the office. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | AnotherNN: Why not 21. ..Bxa3? Seems much better. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | Alphastar: The only thing I got right was the opening - I was 100% sure this was a caro-kann. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | realbrob: Ok, currently looking at 17..Rc8. The immediate threat is to win the knight win ..Rxc3. Moreover this move puts some additional pressure on the weak square c2 (already attacked by the LSB). Now. White of course can't move the N because it's mate, and can't defend the 'a' pawn with another piece. It's pointless to defend the knight with a piece which wouldn't cover a2, and the king has nowhere to escape. AND White doesn't have any immediate, devastating attacks. So the only good idea here is 18.a3 and now if 18..Rxc3? 19.bxc3 it looks like White's position can hold (some examples, 19..Qxa3 20.cxb4 and the White queen can regain a useful position, 19..Bxc2+ 20.Rxc2 Nxc2 21.Kxc2 no problem). But Black of course can play something better than 18..Rxc3? And it's 18..Nxc2! 19.Rxc2. Now at first I was looking at 19..Bxa3 but probably that's wrong because afterwards Black can't win back the piece. So I think the line must be 19..Rxc3 20.bxc3 Qxc3 21.Qc1 (White needs to cover a3, 21.Rc1?? Bxa3, and good night, everybody) 21..Qb3+ 22.Ka1 Bxc2 23.Qb2 Qxb2 (I don't see any good alternatives). 24.Kxb2 Black has to move the bishop so he can't capture the White bishop. Now, Black is up a pawn AND has a passed pawn on d5. I don't know if it's enough to say the job is done. Well, it looks like it was – for a GM that's more than enough to win.. |
|
Sep-20-08
 | | chrisowen: It was a plan of Rc8 and Nxc2 that did white. This is not a good line: more often 10.Nb5 resembling a superior french is played at the highest level e.g. Grischuk vs Asrian (god rest his soul) 2006 and Najer vs Dreev 2006. 16.Rh3 is considerably stronger than Kb1. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | zb2cr: <zooter>,
You asked, "In the game line, what happens after 21.Qb2?" 21. ... Bxc2+. White must play 22. Ka1, since 22. Kc1 loses the Queen to 22. ... Bxa3. After 22. Ka1, Qxa3+ Black is up by a pair of connected passed Pawns. |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | jhoro: I liked <17...Rc8> right away and didn't look for other moves (don't enjoy spending long time pondering at problems). I thought 18.a3 was the best response, which was played, but after that I deviated with <18... Rc4> to be followed probably by <19...Nc6>. at this point things were getting out of hand in terms of complexity and had to look at the game and computer. this line has a punch according to free Rybka
<17...Rc8 18.a3 Rc4 19.Qf3 Nb6> |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | patzer2: Today's Saturday puzzle solution, 17...Rc8!!, initiates a decisive demolition of pawn structure combination after 18. a3 Nxc2! 19. Rxc2 Rxc3! 20. bxc3 Qxc3  .The idea behind the combination is that if Black can snare White's b and c pawns, and otherwise keep the piece material even, then his potential passed b and c pawns will prove decisive in the endgame. The chance to mess up White's King-side pawn structure with the follow-up 24...Bg6! and 25...Bxh5 is an added bonus which helps insure the win. The tactics actually played, as well as those threatened, are interesting and varied, involving the demolition of pawn structure, deflection (i.e. removing the guard or defender), pinning, Knight Fork, double attack, and passed pawn tactics. In addition to Black's first four moves in the combination, two key follow-up moves are 21. Qb3+! (not 21. Bxh3?? 22. Ka2! Bxc2 23. Qxa3 Qxe5 24. Qc5  ) and 24...Bg6! (better than 24...Bd3 25. Be3  when Black probably wins but with more difficulty). |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | TrueBlue: love the game. Lesson to be learned: big o-o-o is a no-no unless you know what you are doing, which white didn't. Super exposed white king was punished! |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | zatara: <AnotherNN: Why not 21. ..Bxa3?>surprisingly 21...Bxa3 is loosing because of the brilliant 22.Ka2 |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | jhoro: in my Rc4 line white has more playable options on move 19 <17...Rc8 18.a3 Rc4 19.axb4 Bxb4> <17...Rc8 18.a3 Rc4 19.Qd2 Nc6> all of which make my head heart. i'd never be able to play these lines without blundering big time... i like 18...Nxc2 better now as it is more forcing |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | patzer2: The first 15 moves of this game were later followed in M Chapman vs I Rogers, 1999, when White tried to vary with 16. Rhe1 but was still lost after 16...Nb4 17. a3 Rc8!! |
|
| Sep-20-08 | | Woody Wood Pusher: I got 17..Rc8 18.a3,Nxc2 19 Rxc2,Rxc3 20.bxc3,Qxc3 and saw however black defended the rook, in this case 21.Qc1, black could pick it up with 21...Qb3+ 22.Ka1,Bxc2 destroying the white queenside and leaving black a good endgame advantage with good passed pawns. I did not see as far as 24..Bg6! which I think is probably the key move seeing as it is a Saturday, so only half points this week! The position after move 30 is about -2.5 but I don't see why white didn't play on just a little more, there was still a chance black might make a mistake and he is 'only' 2 pawns up. |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 19...Rxc3