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Magnus Carlsen vs Gata Kamsky
World Cup (2007), Khanty-Mansiysk RUS, rd 6, Dec-09
Scotch Game: Classical Variation (C45)  ·  1/2-1/2

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 16 OF 16 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-09-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  moronovich: Very impressing how Carlsen easly holds this one after the slight black advantedge.Now everything is still open - though Kamsky is about60-40 favorite due to the white pieces next game.
Dec-09-07  sanyas: Well, I have to say I didn't expect THAT.
Dec-09-07  Alphastar: <moronovich: Very impressing how Carlsen easly holds this one after the slight black advantedge>

Actually Kamsky simply didn't want to play on anymore, offered a draw and Carlsen probably happily accepted it. He is still slightly worse after the last move. Nothing 'impressing' about it.

Dec-09-07  znprdx: well -whadya-know: brilliant! Carlsen, initially rated 17th, gets an easy draw from 8th rated Kamsky. Do the math.
Dec-09-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Magnus had played the Scotch 5 times before: once in 1999, twice in 2002, and twice in 2003.

His second GM Lie, on the other hand...

Dec-09-07  cotdt: Kamsky is the favorite in rapids if there is a draw tomorrow. But Kamsky will play white, so he has his chances to win in classical. carlsen couldn't keep up with kamsky positionally.
Dec-09-07  Interbond: codt don't you have anything positive to say about Carlsen? It seems for me that you always want him to lose.
Dec-09-07  cotdt: <Interbond: codt don't you have anything positive to say about Carlsen? It seems for me that you always want him to lose.>

No, I cheered for Magnus when he was up against Kramnik.

Dec-09-07  BlackNightmare: i was looking forward for this clash carlsen should ve aimed for a sicilian now he'll have to defend with black next match...no pressure right!
Dec-09-07  Zonszein: Kamsky played the oppening in a very original way, didn't he?
Dec-09-07  Eyal: <Zonszein: Kamsky played the opening in a very original way, didn't he?> I wouldn't say VERY original - which doesn't mean that he didn't play it well. It's true that 5...bxc6 is somewhat off-beat in this line of the Scotch - Qf6 is the more popular move; but within this variation Kamsky followed more or less "standard" moves until Carlsen played what was apparently the first new one - 12.Rae1. And then the pushing forward of the 'a' pawn is quite a well-known idea in similar formations arising from the Ruy Lopez (Steinitz or Exchange variations). In any case, Carlsen obviously didn't manage to find very good ideas against Kamsky's game...
Dec-09-07  Zonszein: <Eyal>Thank you.

In any case I liked the way he played.

I wasn't sure whether all of these was really new.

Dec-09-07  ajile: Carlsen should just play his strongest opening as White which is 1.d4. I don't think he was ever comfortable in this game.
Dec-09-07  Rolfo: <ajile> He saves best opening till tie breaks :)
Dec-09-07  IMDONE4: <znprdx: well -whadya-know: brilliant! Carlsen, initially rated 17th, gets an easy draw from 8th rated Kamsky. Do the math.> Are you being sarcastic or stupid? Kamsky is the one who wanted a draw with black this game, so he can have better winning chances with white the next. A draw using white with a player 20 points higher than you is anything but brilliant.
Dec-09-07  IMDONE4: <ajile: Carlsen should just play his strongest opening as White which is 1.d4. I don't think he was ever comfortable in this game.> 1.d4 is hardly an opening...
Dec-09-07  Eyal: There seems to be something indecisive about Carlsen's moves following his "novelty" 12.Rae1. A comment by Shipov in the official site explains it quite well, I think:

<13.Qg3 This move does not connect with the previous one. By keeping the rook on f1, White demonstrated his intention to attack with his pawns in the center. Without queens, this plan is pointless and even risky, as he can just end up with many pawn weaknesses.

However, the problem is that there are no viable alternatives. The immediate 13.f4 leads to the same queen swap: 13...Ng4! 14.Qg3 Qxg3 15.hxg3, but this version is even less favorable for White, as Black can make some good use of the g4-square. The prophylactic 13.h3 allows Black activating the knight by 13...Nd5!, and it feels great on f4.

And the conclusion is?.. Apparently, the novelty 12.Rae1 is unpromising>

Dec-09-07  Jim Bartle: "Whoever wins it, I doubt if he could match Ivanchuk's achievement in the Tal Memorial (http://chesspro.ru/_images/material...)."

Whoa, give a guy a little warning before sending him to that page! I withdraw my comment.

Dec-09-07  znprdx: <IMDONE4:> permit me to quote you:"Are you being sarcastic or stupid?" Watch Carlsen roll Kamsky tomorrow in under 40 moves.
Dec-10-07  Ulhumbrus: An alternative to 10 Nbd2 is 10 c4 with Nc3.
Capablanca's remarks on the game Lasker vs Capablanca, 1921 may be relevant to this game, as may the game Boleslavsky vs Fine, 1945 be relevant to this game.
Dec-10-07  Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: An alternative to 10 Nbd2 is 10 c4 with Nc3. Capablanca's remarks on the game Lasker vs Capablanca, 1921 may be relevant to this game, as may the game Boleslavsky vs Fine, 1945 be relevant to this game.>

The analogy to Ruy Lopez formations is interesting (I mentioned it too in a previous post, with regard to Black's plan of pushing the 'a' pawn) - but 10.c4 would be problematic because it allows Black to strike immediately in the center with 10...d5!, where - unlike in the game - there's no knight on d2 to support e4 or jump to f3 in certain lines.

Dec-10-07  Ulhumbrus: <Eyal: <Ulhumbrus: An alternative to 10 Nbd2 is 10 c4 with Nc3. Capablanca's remarks on the game Lasker vs Capablanca, 1921 may be relevant to this game, as may the game Boleslavsky vs Fine, 1945 be relevant to this game.> The analogy to Ruy Lopez formations is interesting (I mentioned it too in a previous post, with regard to Black's plan of pushing the 'a' pawn) - but 10.c4 would be problematic because it allows Black to strike immediately in the center with 10...d5!, where - unlike in the game - there's no knight on d2 to support e4 or jump to f3 in certain lines.>

My omission, I did not see the game live, and haven't waded through the sixteen pages of kibitzing , although I do not doubt that I will be able to find there somewhere your comments on the similarities with a Ruy Lopez pawn formation.

Having taken a look at the sixteen pages, I find your comments on this very page.

On 10 c4 d5 11 Qc5 prevents Black from castling and threatens 12 Qxc6+ Then on 11...Bd7 White can play 12 Nc3 but he can also offer a pawn by 12 0-0 if Black is unable to castle.

Dec-10-07  Eyal: <Ulhumbrus> That's ok... it was a post-game comment as well, and appears on this page (besides, I was just mentioning it, not criticizing you for ignoring it). But regarding 10.d5, I think you got the position wrong - Black has already castled on move 9.
Dec-10-07  Ulhumbrus: <Eyal> Yes, Black has castled, so on 10 c4 d5 White cannot distract Black by 11 Qc5 as Black may simply ignore the threat of Qxc6 by playing 11...Re8 starting an attack on White's King.

In the game Boleslavsky vs Fine, 1945 Fine never does play ...d5 after Boleslavsky plays c5.

This suggests that White has to look for alternatives elsewhere.

Instead of 13 Qf3-g3, 13 Nf3 supporting the advance e5 threatens an endgame similar to that in the game Lasker vs Capablanca, 1921

Dec-10-07  IMDONE4: <znprdx: <IMDONE4:> permit me to quote you:"Are you being sarcastic or stupid?" Watch Carlsen roll Kamsky tomorrow in under 40 moves.>

Yeah I watched it, and you can quote me too. O wait, it was the other way around. My bad, you silly, silly Magnus Carlsen fanboy. Seriously, get off his ****.

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