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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Aug-25-09
 | | doubledrooks: 28...Qxg3 29. fxg3 opens up the f file for a discovered check and leads to mate or the loss of a lot of material, as others have posted. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | David2009: I underestimated this puzzle ("it's a Tuesday"), quick glance at the position, saw 28 ...Qxg3 29 fxg3 Nxh3+ "and mates" - missing 30 Rf2! = . <Patriot: Easy? My calculation ability must be getting worse these days...> Commiserations - mine most certainly is. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | ounos: I went for 30. ...Nxg3+, which also wins. But Nd4+ indeed is much better. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | kevin86: A brilliant finish: If 31 ♔d1 ♖f1# and 31 ♖e2 ♘xc2+ smashes the game to bits! |
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| Aug-25-09 | | lzromeu: Back rank mate's week. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | MiCrooks: Haven't we seen this game on here fairly recently? That or one very like it! |
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| Aug-25-09 | | Summerfruit: White is a pawn up.
28...Qxg3 29.fxg3 Ne2+
a) 30.Ke1 Nd4+
a1: 31.Kd1 Rf1#
a2: 31.Re2 Nxc2+ and wins.
a3: 31.Qe4 Rxe4+ and wins.
b) 30.Qf5 Rxf5+ 31.Ke1 Nd4+ and wins. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | chessenthus: yes!i saw the first move Qxg3!! then fxg3 .solved it!! |
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| Aug-25-09 | | BOSTER: 28...Qxg3
29.fxg3 Ne2+
30. Ke1 Ng3+
31.Re2 Rf1+
32. Kd2 Rxe2
33.Kd3 Rxc2
34.Rxf1 Nxf1
35. Kxc2 and Black the piece ahead . No any explanation are required-all moves are forced.
I saw Nd4+ but I did not calculate it.
Because today's puzzle for me is more easy than yesterday I want to ask couple questions.
We can see the picture what is on the chess board(diagram) very clearly.
Why can not most of us see the same picture after one move ahead ?
It is eay for most of us to find the mate in one move. But why is it so difficult to find the mate in two move if we have no any hint.
Even who can see mate in two,how many of them can see the final position at once without between move?
What is the difference when we have a deal with the real picture and the picture in our imagination ?
Maybe <Once> or somebody else can explain the peculiar barrier in our perception.
Thaks in advance. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | YouRang: Ever play checkers where you make a bad move, and your opponent is then able wipe you out with a devastating multi-hop capture? That's what this puzzle reminded me of. First the knight the gets the queen back (a piece up), but then goes on to win a rook with a K+R fork, and we forcefully trade off the other rook, leaving the naked king against a rook and knight. BTW, I got the puzzle, but for a moment I thought the answer included 29...Nxh3+, but realized the flaw (white can block with 30.Rf2, leading to a series of drawish tradeoffs). But 29...Ne2+ is excellent. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | ZUGZWANG67: I found this one a little complicated, but quite interesting. I think W wins a piece with 28. ...Qxg3. That is because 29.fxg3 Ne2+ 30.Ke1 Nd4+ 31.Re2 (31.Kd1 Rf1 mate)31. ...Nxc2. It took me some time to find out that there is no forced mate. Time to check.
I feel good. Got it ! |
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| Aug-25-09 | | Patriot: <BOSTER: "...Even who can see mate in two,how many of them can see the final position at once without between move? What is the difference when we have a deal with the real picture and the picture in our imagination ?"> I'm not completely sure what you are asking. Pattern recognition allows us to see everything instantly, if it is something well practiced. For example, studying pins, forks, double-attacks, etc. This position involves knowing the knight can move with a discovered check but it still requires knowing which check is best and that requires calculation. But looking at a board position versus seeing the final position in our heads involves visualization, which is a skill that can be acquired by repeatedly moving pieces in our head. Even the strongest players would agree that at some point visualization becomes fuzzy after so many moves deep and that is why they usually take another look at the position after the pieces are moved, even though they've already calculated what move is best at that point. Maybe it was Kotov that said always take a fresh look at the position after the pieces are moved? |
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| Aug-25-09 | | Chess Gambler: For a player like me who only sees one move ahead at a time anyhow, I think it was easy. I saw the one move and I saw the combination ... one move deep. :-P I think I probably would have found Ne2+ when the time came, but I don't like to plan that far ahead. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | laskersteinitz: This is a little involved for a Tuesday...More like a Wednesday puzzle. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | Once: <BOSTER> This is what I think is happening ... Chessplayers usually do not see the board as a whole or the individual pieces as separate entities. Instead we see chunks of several pieces which form a recognisable pattern. In effect, we see the relationship between pieces. So from the starting position:
click for larger view... we see several piece relationships that form straight lines. For example, we see that the black queen on g6 can take the knight on g3. We see that there is a relationship between the Rf8, Nf4, Pf2 and Kf1 because they are all on the same file. We see that the Qc2 and Rd2 form a defensive battery along the second rank. We see that the rooks controlling adjacent files (e and f) have a potentially mating relationship to the white king. So it is not too hard to visualise moves which fit with these patterns. 28...Qxg3 (the Qg6-Ng3 pattern) opens up the discovery along the f file (the Rf8-Nf4-Kf1 pattern). 29...Ne2+ blocks the white defence along the second rank (the Qc2-Rd2 pattern). The move that is hard to spot from the starting position is 30...Nd4+. This may be because our brains have not drawn a connection between the knight's starting position on f4 and the white queen sitting apparently safely on c2. Instead, most of us got hooked on the idea that we were going to mate the white king with the rook pair. Look at the diagram after 30. Ke1 and the relationship between black knight and white queen forms a recognisable pattern. We can see that there is a pattern relationship between the knight and the queen, so it is much easier to visualise the 30...Nd4+ move. 
click for larger viewThe moves that are hardest to visualise are the ones that do not form part of the patterns that we see in the starting position. The classic "hard to spot" moves are bishops moving backwards, zwischenzugs, mating threats that turn into material wins and moves that were not possible at the beginning of a combination but become possible when a piece becomes pinned (or unpinned). Does this make sense? Or perhaps it's just a glass of whisky talking after a long hard day in the office! |
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| Aug-25-09 | | wals: [Event "Bratto Festival"]
[Site "Bratto"]
[Date "2007.08.24"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Flavio Guido"]
[Black "Sabino Brunello"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C54"]
[WhiteElo "2331"]
[BlackElo "2471"]
[Annotator "Rybka 3 1-cpu (30m)"]
[PlyCount "60"]
C54: Giuoco ♙iano: 4 c3 ♘f6, main lines with 5 d4 and 5 d3 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3
Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d3 O-O 6. O-O d5 7. exd5 Nxd5 8. Re1 Bg4 9. h3 Bh5
10. Nbd2 Nb6 11. Bb5 Bd6 12. a4 a6 13. Bxc6 bxc6 14. Ne4 f5 ♗lack threatens
to win material: f5xe4 (14... f6 15. d4 ) 15. Ng3 Bxf3 16. Qxf3 Qd7 (16...
Nd5 17. Bd2 (17. Nxf5 Kh8 )) 17. Nf1 (17. c4 a5 ) 17... Rae8 (
17... e4 18. dxe4 Rae8 19. e5 Bxe5 20. Bf4 Bxf4 21. Qxf4 ) 18. Qd1 (18.
e4 19. Qd1 Nd5 ) 18... a5 (18... Qf7 19. a5 Nd7 20. Qe2 ) 19. Nd2 (19.
Qb3+ Kh8 ) 19... e4 20. dxe4 fxe4 21. Qb3+ (21. Nxe4 doesn't work
because of Rxe4 Decoy: e4 22. Qb3+ Rc4 ) 21... Kh8 (21... Nd5 22. Nxe4
Qf5 23. f3 ) 22. Nxe4 Qf5 ♗lack has a mate threat 23. Qc2 Nd5 (23...
Qe5 24. f4 Qf5 25. Re2 ) 24. Re2 Qh5 (24... h6 25. Nxd6 Qxc2 26. Nf7+
Kh7 27. Rxc2 Re1+ 28. Kh2 Rxf7 29. b3 ) 25. Kf1 (25. Qd3 Bf4 26. Re1 Qg6
) 25... Bf4 (25... h6 26. Rb1 ) 26. Bxf4 (26. f3 Bxc1 27. Rxc1 Qh6 )
26... Nxf4 27. Rd2 (27. Ng3 Rxe2 28. Qxe2 Qd5 ) 27... Qg6 (27... Nxg2
28. Kxg2 Qf3+ 29. Kh2 Rxe4 (29... Qxe4 30. Qxe4 Rxe4 31. b4 )) 28.
Ng3 ?? ♗LU♘DE♖ (28. f3 would save the game) 28... Qxg3
Decoy: f2 29. fxg3 (29. fxg3 Nh5+ Double attack (29... Nxh3+ Decoy)) (29.
-- Qxg2# Mate threat) 29... Ne2+ 30. Ke1 Nd4+ (30... Nd4+ 31. Re2 Nxc2+ 32.
Kd2 Nxa1 33. Rxe8 Rxe8 ) 0-1
The above may be of interest to those seeking help. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | MaczynskiPratten: Nice explanation <Once>! I found this harder than an average Tuesday. I spotted Qxg3 quickly but was not sure of the best follow-up, saw Ne2+ but missed Nd4+. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | WhiteRook48: 28...Qxg3 29 fxg3 was all I got then I switched to 29...Nxh3+? 30 Rf2 Rxf2+ 31 Qxf2 Nxf2 32 Kxf2 with no progress |
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| Aug-25-09 | | BOSTER: <Once>
First of all thanks for your attention.
< We see chunks of several pieces, which form a recognisable patters. In effect, we see the relationship between pieces>.
D.Bronstein believed,that we could see only the pieces on the board,but we could not see the relationship between them-this is only in our brain.
<The move that is hard to spot from the starting position is 30...Nd4.
This maybe because our brains have not drawn a connection between the knight 's starting position on f4 and the white queen sitting apparently safely on c2>. This is a brilliant idea! |
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Aug-25-09
 | | LIFE Master AJ: I got the key move, anyway ... |
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| Aug-25-09 | | Eisenheim: always consider forced moves - consider forced moves - and in case I forgot consider forced moves and puzzles like these will be easy. The greats think through the obscure forces to dictate play, but the obvious forces will separate the patzers from the playas. |
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| Aug-25-09 | | Eisenheim: btw, as always my remarks should be construed with a degree of levity - was not trying to insult anyone who missed the puzzle - even though it was incredibly easy |
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Aug-25-09
| | LIFE Master AJ: Eisenham ... I probably sepnt less than two minutes on the puzzle, and so, if I missed anything, its no big deal. |
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| Feb-07-13 | | Whitehat1963: Beautiful finish! |
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| Jan-07-24 | | Saniyat24: Guide to Knightmares by Sabino Brunello...! |
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Kibitzing
sac: 28...Qxg3