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Karel Treybal vs Kurt Moll
Berlin (1907), Berlin GER
Four Knights Game: Spanish. Symmetrical Variation (C49)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-02-12  David2009: K Treybal vs K Moll, 1907 White 18?

Exchange twice on f6 starting with 18.Rxf6 (the most forcing continuation): 18.Rxf6 Rxf6 19.Bxf6 gxf6 20.Qxf6. What have I missed?- time to check:
====
OK I didn't analyse furher - I didn't feel the need to.I would have expected Black to develop the Bishop somewhere, but I see it can't be done without losing it, which leaves only 19...h5 losing as pointed out (for example) by <CHESSTTCAMPS>.

Come back Crafty EGT all is forgiven - you are sorely missed.

Feb-02-12  LIFE Master AJ: 18.RxN/f6! if pawn takes, then QxP/h6#.
(Don't forget the LSB@b3.)

Looks like 18...RxR/f6▢; 19.BxR/f6, PxB/f6; 20.QxP/f6, and Black is busted. (20...Qc7; 21.Bf7, and now Black might have to give up the Queen to prevent mate.)

Feb-02-12  LIFE Master AJ: <David2009> Is the Crafty EGT thing broken?
Feb-02-12  LoveThatJoker: I've confirmed with Stockfish what would happen after 20...Qc7 21. Rf1 and it says that White is winning by at least 4 pawns in all variations!

That's certainly a winning solution.

LTJ

Feb-02-12  jackalope: Thanks <morfishine> for taking a look. As pointed out by you and <CHESSTTCAMP>, White's Rf1 makes Black's game life miserable. After "pushing wood" around, I see that Black can only prolong his agony:

<18. Rxf6 Rxf6 19. Bxf6 gxf6 20. Qxf6 h5 21. Rf1! Qc7 22. Qg5 Be6 23. Rf6 Qg7 24. Rxe6 Rf8 25. Kh2>

White now enjoys QRBN+p vs qrb and a much better position. 1-0

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  whittaker: <James D Flynn> I assume you meant 20 ... h5 as a defensive try. White can just play 21 Qxe5 and be two pawns up and continue the K attack with Rf1, etc.
Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: The final bishop move blocks out the queen and sets the stage for a mate at h6 or g8,with the queen,aided by the bishop.
Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  scormus: <OCF> I missed the vital 21 Bc7 grab when I jumped up for it, but I sure got it on the way down (rather like Jim Bridger)
Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I know it sounds ridiculous, but I occasionally miss "long" Bishop moves.
Feb-02-12  gofer: <18 Rxf6 ...>

18 ... gxf6 19 Qxh6#

<18 ... Rxf6>
<19 Bxf6 ...>

This wins the knight as the following is not advisable 19 ... gxf6 20 Qxf6 ... Black has to deal with the two mating threats of Bf7 and Qf7+ (20 ... Bf8 21 Qf7+ Bg7 22 Qg8#) or (20 ... Bd7 21 Qf7+ Kh8) So black needs an alternative, that doesn't allow Bxg7 which makes black's life even more difficult (i.e. 19 ... Bxc3 20 Bxg7 Kxg7 21 Qe7+ mating).

<19 ... g4>
<20 Bxg4 ...>

White is knight and pawn better off. But I am not certain that its all over just yet... ...Time to check...

Feb-02-12  CHESSTTCAMPS: <jackalope> In your line above, I prefer the interpolation 21.Qf7+ first to prevent 21...Qc7, then 22.Rf1 leaves black helpless. It took me a while to find this line, because white has a number of good options, such as 21.Qxe5, 21.Bf7, and 21.Qf7+ followed by 22.Qg8.

<LIFE Master AJ> Yes, its still broken as of this morning. I've sent an email to the administrators, but haven't received a response yet.

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I got to looking at 21. ? The White Bishop is a long way off, and sort of surrounded by other irrelevant pieces. But I flipped the board, and from Black's perspective, it is 5 times more obvious what White should play. That diagonal is just driving a stake in the heart of Black's position.


click for larger view

Anyone else see this, or am I just daft?

Feb-02-12  CHESSTTCAMPS: <James D Flynn> mentioned another line I looked at against the 20... h5 defense, namely 21.Bg8+, also likely winning, but not nearly as clean as 21.Qf7+.
Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  scormus: <OCF> not daft at all, I often see good moves for my opponent, usually a moment after I made my move :(
Feb-02-12  BOSTER: I'd like to continue the discussion yesterday's <POTD>.

Imagine that we would like to give the chess award (not Golden Globe) for the game with symbolical name <The best ending with breaking pin>.

The solution with forced line beginning with 37...e4xf3 impresses everybody by fantastic simplicity, creating the beauty.

The chess resource to build the win are very economical: only knight and pawn.

Not very often one succeeds in playing something similar.

This solution leaves an indelible aesthetic impression.

Some players represented the solution beginning with the introduction 37...h5. But this move completely changes the situation.

First, now white has the right to play!
And while the black pondering this move , white could understand that their plan using the <pinned> e4 pawn was wrong.

But after 37...h5 white not obliged to stay on the 4 rank playing 38.Rh4 to make black life so luxurious. Black had already lost their opportunity to use the <pin>. So wite can play 38.Rg6,or Rg3, or they can play in-between move <desperado> 38.Ne5+ to make his rook more active.

Using another words game is getting more complicated, there is no forced line.

According to Lasker from all possibilities in combo it is necessary to choose the simpliest because in this case your risk to fail is minimum.

Considering all this I believe that yesterday's <POTD> has only one correct solution 37...exf3 38.Rxc4 f2 39.Ke2 f1=Q+ 40.Kxf1 Ne3+ 41.Ke2 Nxc4.

Feb-02-12  dzechiel: <Jason Frost: 19. Bxh6? looks the same as 19. Bxf6 at first, but then 19...Qf2 and woops 0-1>

Excellent. I stand corrected.

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Peligroso Patzer: It strikes me that the main pedagogical value in this puzzle is from <(1)> understanding why in the given position (after <17. … dxe5>), it is correct for White to capture on f6 first with the Rook, and <(2)> seeing the simple tactic (after <18. Rxf6>) that forbids <18. … gxf6> by Black in reply (which is the explanation for point <(1)>).

Apart from these small finesses, the tactic is very simple (more attackers than defenders on f6). Perhaps also noteworthy is the unstoppable threat to Black's King after <20. Qxf6> and <21. Bf7> in consequence of which White is winning not merely a pawn, but rather compelling Black's instant resignation.

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: In slushy it again freezing f6 for knight in try it snapple group

Treybal in sacs a mint bight stronger coasting three in <xf6 xf6 xf6>

Varied ar your piste de resistance whip bf7!

Difficult final one ill look forward to console myself with a docked rxf6 or pepper really yoyo g4 hurt Moll erred kh7 love six move combo in good delve heading off:

13...h6 has wasting mine camp f6
Hung on 14.Qe1 white tricks

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <BOSTER> My friend, you are a genius! First you comment on yesterday's POTD - a daring new approach which introduces a level of complication that would outflummox our own dear <chrisowen>.

But then you crown your achievements with the new patented BOSTER logic. Any solution that you personally find a little complicated is immediately rendered as not a solution at all. So the inferior 37...exf3 is suddenly elevated to the only "correct" move because you couldn't work out the two or three lines that you need to understand the stronger 37...h5.

What a concept! Just as Descartes said "I think therefore I am", we now have BOSTER's "I don't understand it, therefore it isn't correct." It's a bold idea, radical, breathtaking, revolutionary.

But just think of the practical applications! We all now have instant solutions to those Saturday "very difficult" and Sunday "insane" blues. We no longer need to struggle to analyse the puzzles, we just declare "I don't understand today's POTD, therefore it isn't correct". Brilliant!

But there's more. We can extend this concept to the field of human relationships. The next time that a woman (or man) gazes deep into your eyes and says "you just don't understand my feelings", you can whip out your BOSTER logic and proclaim "Aha! If I don't understand your feelings, it follows that your feelings are incorrect."

There are some problems with this approach, but I am sure we can work them out. A beginner to the game of chess may say "I don't understand the rules of this complicated game therefore they must be wrong."

And then there's the problem of exams. Examiners may get fed up reading answers which read: "I don't understand the question, therefore the question must be incorrect."

Sir, I salute you. With one masterly stroke you have transformed the fields of philosophy, logic and science. If I don't understand it, it cannot be correct.

History will long remember this moment. It's just a pity that future historians won't be able to work out which game of chess gave rise to the new logic...

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: Quite straightforward:
Rxh6 Bxf6 Qxf6 Bxh6 Bh7 Qg6 Bf7 Qf6 Bg7 Bg6 Rg3 Nd2 Ne4 Ng3 Bg8 (interference). Then Rg3-g5-g6-g8-h8 followed by Ng5 MATE!

Very easy!

Feb-02-12  mworld: with the ease of this one for a wednesday, I await news of it being a spoiler....
Feb-02-12  M.Hassan: "Medium" White to play 18.?
Equal strength on both sides

Looks like Knihgt on f6 has to be eliminated not by the Bishop but by Rook since Bishop attacks h6 as well:

18.Rxf6 Rxf6
<if...gxf6 19.Qxh6#> 19.Bxf6 gxf6
20Qxf6 Qc7
21.Bf7
A valuable obstruction that can result in checkmate or at least costing Black the Queen.


click for larger view

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <Once: The next time that a woman (or man) gazes deep into your eyes and says "you just don't understand my feelings", you can whip out your BOSTER logic and proclaim "Aha! If I don't understand your feelings, it follows that your feelings are incorrect.">

Well, in the case of a woman, that is probably an accurate summation.

Feb-02-12  dufferps: I think black blundered with 18. ... Rxf6
I think a better line would have been something like: 18. ... Qd8
19. Raf1 Qe8
20. R1f3 Bc5
21. Bf7 Rxf7
22. Rxf7 Be6
and we are at a fierce endgame

Am I missing something?

Feb-02-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <dufferps> After <18...Qd8>:


click for larger view

White wins the queen with <19.Rxg6> due to the threat of 20.Rxh6+ gxh6 21.Qxh6#. If 19...Qxg5 20.Rxg5.

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