|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Oct-23-03 | | drukenknight: Eggie: Just 5 days ago you said:
"As for dogma, only the compliant student need fear the dogmatic teacher." Why do you believe in dogma when the board tells you otherwise? "You have to gain experience to enable you to find a suitable means between humble acceptance of the dicta of autority and over bearing self assertion. Chess provides you with such oppurtunties becaues you can prove propositions in chess, if need be by checkmating your opponent, whereas in other fields of endeavor it is difficulf for you to obtain a hearing to prove your case...That period [of Morphy] blindly believed in authority, it was eager to pay genius by uncritical praise. By your effort to acquire critical judgement you help to make your period cognizant of the rightful claims of genius. " Lasker |
|
Oct-23-03
 | | Eggman: How does the quoted passage of mine imply that I believe in dogma? If anything, it implies the opposite. And as for Lasker, I have only this to say: well said. |
|
| Oct-23-03 | | drukenknight: so what's the winning line? |
|
Oct-23-03
| | Eggman: HC's final post seems to produce a done deal: 50...Kh8 51.Nxf7+ Kg7 52.Rb7 Qd2+ 53.Kh3 Qe1 54.Ng5+ Be7 55.Rxe7+ Qxe7 56.Ne6+ Kh7 57.Nxf8+ Qxf8 58.Qxc6, and Black can resign in good conscience. If this really is the winning line and if there isn't anything better, than I think Spassky could have played on for another move or two rather than resigning when he did. But the position was still completely lost. |
|
| Oct-23-03 | | drukenknight: Egg man: I am afraid you are guilty on two charges in relation to the Lasker case. Charge 1: Resort to authority, you are calling on Honza's line to prove it wins for white. Charge 2: Illogic: Honza's himself does not even call it a win. |
|
Oct-24-03
| | Eggman: I am, in the words of O. J. Simpson, absolutely 100% not guilty, and unlike Simpson I can say this with all honesty and accuracy. Note that I do not quote Honza's line as winning BECAUSE Honza says it's so - I was simply stating that the line he gave SEEMED TO ME to be winning (it's a pity I can't use italics for emphasis because the block capitols can give the impression that I'm yelling - I'm not). And since I'm not citing HC as an authority, I don't need to agree with his assessment of  . From MY OWN KNOWLEDGE of endgames, I can opine that the final position in his line is a definite win. |
|
| Oct-24-03 | | drukenknight: Gee Eggman, I am an attorney and you are more verbose than I. Not a good sign. ANyhow, Honza's line might continue with: 58...Qf5+ 59. Kg2 Qd3 60. Qc7+ Kg8 61. Qb8+ Kh7 62. Qb7+ Kh6 63. Qb2 Kh7 64. Kf2 Kg8 65. Qb8+ Kf7 66. Qc7+ Ke8 but black can try 65...Qc4 65. Qb7+ Kg8 66. Qb8+ Kf7 67. Qf4+ Ke6 68. Qe5+ Kd7 69. d5 Qc5+ 70. Ke2 Qd6 and he easily makes it to the second time control after the adjournment. The last line, produces a very interesting pattern that may be wothwhile to see how the strengths and weaknesses balance each other in this. Eggman:in your experience does any of this look like a win? |
|
Jun-14-04
 | | ray keene: the main line goes like this-50...kh8
51nxf7+ kg7 52 rxf8 qd2+ 53 kh3 qd1 54 rg8+ kxg8 55nh6+ !! kg7 56 qg8+ and black is mated. the whole of the second session followed petrosians analysis. |
|
| Jun-14-04 | | drukenknight: Errrh if 52 Rxf8 isnt it 52...Bxd4? Sorry to be a bother about this. |
|
| Jun-15-04 | | drukenknight: I'm glad Tiger isnt here to see this, still waiting to see the win after: 50...Kh8
51. Nxf7+ Kg7
52. Rxf8 Bxd4
53. Rg8+ Kxg8
54. Nd6+ Kh8
55. Qf1 Kg7
56. Nc4 Qe6
57. Qd3 c5 |
|
| Jun-15-04 | | crafty: 50...♔h8 51. ♘xf7+ ♔g7 52. ♖xf8 ♗xd4 53. ♖g8+ ♔xg8 54. ♘g5+ ♔h8 55. ♕f1 ♔g7  (eval -0.50; depth 15 ply; 1000M nodes) |
|
| Jun-15-04 | | Woodpusher: Here's the scoop: 50...Kh8 51 Nxf7+ Kg7 52 Rb7 Qd2+ 53 Kh3 Qe1 54 Ng5+ Be7 55 Rxe7+ Qxe7 56 Ne6+ Kg8 57 Nxf8+ Kxf8 58 Qxc6 and white wins easily! |
|
| Jun-15-04 | | ughaibu: Honza already posted that. |
|
| Jul-13-06 | | Ulhumbrus: One reason why Black concedes more than he gains by 21...Ba6 is that the Black QB can defend the c6 pawn whereas the Whire KB cannot attack it nearly as easily. |
|
| Jul-13-06 | | Ulhumbrus: 42...Ra6 attacks the White Queen whereupon 43 Rxd5 attacks the Black Queen ( in picking up the d5 pawn)With 43 ... Qxf4 the attacked Black Q offers herself for a N whereupon with 44 Qxa6 the attacked White Q offers herself for a R. With 44..Qe4+ the Black Q removes herself from attack with check whereupon 45 f3 obstructs the check and attacks the Black Queen again. 45... Qe6 removes the Black Queen from attack and attacks the Rd5 whereupon 46 Qc4 removes the White Queen from attack and defends the Rd5. On 46...Qxe3 47 Ne5 begins a fresh attack, this time upon the f7 pawn. 47..Rf8 defends the f7 pawn but also unpins the c6 pawn and so threatens the Rd5 with capture whereupon 48 Rc5 removes the Rook from attack. 48...Be7 attacks the Rc5 but 49 Rb1 ignores this attack and continues the attack upon the f7 pawn. After 49...Bxc5 whereas the earlier 47 Ne5 has attacked f7 directly, the sacrifice 50 Rxb8! attacks the f7 pawn more indirectly, by pinning the Rf8 which defends the f7 pawn, and now Black will succumb to a mating attack. Nice, eh? It might be said that if game 19 showed Spassky at his best, this game showed Petrosian at his best. |
|
| Apr-07-08 | | Knight13: 39...Bd8 and then bring the h-rook to c7 by Rh7-c7 and hold off. Might be good. |
|
| Apr-08-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Knight13: 39...Bd8 and then bring the h-rook to c7 by Rh7-c7 and hold off. Might be good.> This defends the b6 pawn, and so frees the Ra6 from having to defend it. However on 39...Bd8 40 e4 attacks the d5 pawn a third time, and the d5 pawn is pinned against the f7 pawn. |
|
| Apr-08-08 | | Knight13: Then I guess that means play 40...Bd8 instead, and not the Rh7-c7 thing as it would hang the b pawn. |
|
| Apr-12-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Knight13: Then I guess that means play 40...Bd8 instead, and not the Rh7-c7 thing as it would hang the b pawn.> There is however another threat as well, that of Nxd5, as the c6 pawn is pinned to the Rook on c8 and so cannot recapture on d5. |
|
| Aug-15-09 | | Davolni: This game is I believe the last game Petrosian won as a champion. Interesting and nice game! |
|
| Nov-05-09 | | scrambler: This game with annotation:
http://www.ez-net.com/~mephisto/Car... |
|
| Jun-16-11 | | Ulhumbrus: An alternative to 23...h5 is 23...f5 playing for the thrust ....f4 |
|
Jun-16-11
 | | perfidious: <Ulhumbrus: An alternative to 23...h5 is 23...f5 playing for the thrust ....f4> On first glance, this seems reasonable.
In <scrambler>'s link, Geller gives 23....Qe6. It's hard for Black to do anything active here without weakening his position, which was very much in line with Petrosian's intentions. |
|
| Jun-16-11 | | msoewulff: interesting to watch white gradually invade black's territory. |
|
| Jul-18-12 | | Ulhumbrus: <ray keene: the main line goes like this-50...kh8
51nxf7+ kg7 52 rxf8 qd2+ 53 kh3 qd1 54 rg8+ kxg8 55nh6+ !! kg7 56 qg8+ and black is mated. the whole of the second session followed petrosians analysis. > One point of 50...Kh8 is that the capture 51 Qxf7 will not come with check, and from f7 the queen covers no longer the square e2, and this gives Black time to play 51...Qe2+ with a draw by perpetual check. So after Black has thrown this spoke into what would be otherwise a comparatively "simpler" win White has to settle for the comparatively more complicated win beginning with the check 51 Nxf7+ |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 49.Rb1