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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-24-11 | | morfishine: <sevenseaman> On your comment: <...You are still not posting your complete line...> Good point. Basically, my line is based on this position: <20.Qh6 Bf7 21.Nxd5> with Black to move: my position after 21.Nd5
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Whereas in Gulko's line, he sacs the Bishop straight away <20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6> with Black to move: Gulko's position after 21.Qh6
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Now here, in Gulko's move order, which I had looked at, I concluded that <21...Ndf8> (not 21...Ngf8) was a better defense since the Black Queen is now defending <d5> and is ready to go to <c7> to defend the 7th-rank. Plus Black's WSB still covers <f5>.
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If now <22.Nxh6 Qc7 23.Nxf6+ Kf7> we arrive at this position:
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This is the critical position with White a piece down but up 3-pawns and about to win an exchange back. If 24.Nh6 Kg8 (since 24...Ke7 loses to 25.Nxd5+)...How is white to make progress? So I discarded it thinking Gulko saw
<21...Ndf8>
And my final line runs: <20.Qh6 Bf7 21.Nxd5 Bxd5 22.Bxg6> Black resigns as neither 22...Nxg6 nor 22...Rxe1 save the position (as previously noted). I don't mind not getting the exact game-score correct. What we learn is far more important than what we err in, provided the lessons learned in the err are inculcated into ourselves. And if the line holds up under hard-testing, then its that much the better. :) |
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Sep-24-11
 | | Jimfromprovidence: I diverged from the text with 21…Ndf8, to protect against the text 22 Nxd5. 22 Nxh5 follows. This threatens mate-in-one so black counters with 22…Re7. Now, 23 Nxf6+ Kf7 24 Nh5 follows. 
click for larger view This is another mate-in-one threat so black plays 24… Ke8. After 25 Ng7+ Kd7 this is the position. 
click for larger viewThis is really tough. Did black escape? One way to go here is 26 Nxe6 Rxe6 27 Rxe6 Kxe6
click for larger viewI stopped here, but it looks like pushing the f pawn up to f5 is the way to go. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | Creg: I believe we need to take advantage of the white square weakness around the black king. 20.Rxe6 After that I'm not certain where to go with this, but it seems like a plausible track. 20...Rxe6 21.Nxd5 now the white lines to the king are open and white can play his knight to f4, or his bishop to, though I think knight to f4 is more interesting. I think after an eventual Qh6 white is going to have an interesting attack. I'm just not sure how it all plays out. -----
Ohhh, Gulko played a much better line of attack. That is nice. |
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Sep-24-11
 | | chrisowen: G3 be6 equal plan extra time in the days bg6 cattle round. Om nom nom suet dew rusht for sit a mania g6 suck far black it is in wash o mage roost Lhama black h5 why not ph4? I think it is tincture f5 lash it double in trouble why it is angle f4 coin a term dog sin f6? Business chuted it down wreck go when timing mattered Gulko gift no opportunity qh6 and ba2 superfluous a 10 floor elevate. Rook in d5 rite knight lap oknebula source man a6 gain g5 what screwed Ani B lightning bod? |
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| Sep-24-11 | | Marmot PFL: The books always warn against gratuitous weakening moves like 18...f6, yet even strong players still make them. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | EXIDE: I am struggling to find the right continuation after: 20Bxg6,NxB 21.Qh6,Ndf8. Just cannot find a suitable reply, all my effort seem to favor black in the end. Any thoughts will be appreciated. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | morfishine: <Jimfromprovidence> Excellent work on <21...Ndf8>. This defensive resource influenced the move-order I went with: starting with 20.Qh6 instead of 20.Bxg6. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | abuzic: <On 21...Ndf8>
20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6 Ndf8 22.Nxh5
<22...Rc7> 23.Nxf6+ Kf7 24.Nh5 Ke8 25.f4 Rh7 <(25...Kd7 26.f5 Bxf5 27.Nf6+ Kc8 28.Rc1 Kb8 29.Rxf5 Ka7 30.Nfxd5)> 26.Rxe6+ Kf7 27.Rxg6 Rxh6 28.Rxh6...interesting position, but white stands better. <22...Qc7> 23.Nxf6+ Kf7 24.f4 and black is hopeless: if 24...Kxf6 25.f5 Qc7 26.fxe6+ Ke7 27.Qg5+ Kd6 28.Rf7 Nxe6 29.Qxg6... if 24...Qc6 25.Nxe8 Rxe8 26.f5 Bxf6 27.Rxf5+ Kg8 28.Ref1 Qd7 29.Nxd5... if 24...Qc4 25.f5 Kxf6 26.fxg6+ Bf5 27.g7+ Ng6 28.g8N+ Rxg8 29.g4... if 24...Bf5 25.Nh5 Ne6 <(25...Rxe1 26.Qg7+)> 26.Re5 Nxe5 <(26...Ke7 27.Nxd5+; 26...Rh8 27.Rxf5+ Ke7 28.Qxg6 Rag8 29.Nxd5+; 26...Nh4 27.Rxe6 Rxe6 28.Qg7+)> 27.fxe5 Ke7 <(27...Kg8 28.Nf6+ Kf7 29.Rxf5 Nxd4 30.Nxe8+ Nxf5 31.Qh5+ Kg8 32.Nxc7)> 28.Nxd5+ Kd8 <(28...Kd7 29.Nhf6+ Kc8 30.Nxc7....)> 29.Qxf6+ Kd7 30.Nxc7 Nxc7 31.Qxf5+.... if 24...Re7 25.f5 Bxf5 26.Nh5 Rxe1 27.Qg7+ and Qxc7 to follow.... |
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Sep-24-11
 | | scormus: <Jim> many thanks for your great work today. We seem to have been on similar lines with 21 ... Ndf8 22 Nh5! And we probbaly agree that the continuation when W plays Nxf6+ and then back to Nh5 is not just complicated, it's downright labyrinthine. I searched ages for a force win for W with 25 Ng7+ but eventually gave up. You also save my sanity! I looked again at my post, the game continuation and my move 23 Nxf6+ (???? after 21 ... Ngf8) Only after I read your post I realised that while I'd concentrated on Ndf8 (for the same reason as you) B had played Ngf8. And why I didnt pick 22 Nxd5 (! after 21 ... Ngf8). I'll sleep better tonight knowing I have a couple of brain cells still functioning, even if all the others are shot. I'm still not sure which Ng8 would have been the better defense. IMO this is a tough Saturday puzzle. |
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Sep-24-11
| | scormus: <abuzic> also thanks for following up on 21 ... Ndf8. seems you posted while I was doing mine. I guess there was no clear win with 25 Ng7+ But it seems all too easy for you. Shouldn't <CG> have a rule banning 2400+ players from posting on the puzzles :) |
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| Sep-24-11 | | Patriot: The only move I thought could lead to something was 20.Bxg6. 20.Qh6 looked suspicious because of 20...f5 or 20...Bf7. 20.Bxg6 creates an immediate threat (21.Bxe8), destroys the king's pawn cover, wins at least a pawn if black refuses to accept the sac, and white is guaranteed at least two pawns for a piece and an opened king position for compensation. I analyzed it for about 5 minutes. 20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6 Ngf8 but thought 22.Nxh5 Re7 (22...Qe7 23.Nxd5 gets another piece in the attack for nothing) 23.Nxf6+ Nxf6 24.Qxf6. Houdini says it's practically even (slightly favors black). 22.Nxd5 is much stronger, which I didn't calculate. I noticed that 21...Bf7 22.Nxh5 and there is no defense against 23.Qg7# There is a lot to analyze here if you have the time or if you want to take the time, but from a practical standpoint I don't think it requires a lot of calculation. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | morfishine: <scormus> I'm in your camp with Black having to play his Knight on <d7> to <f8> (instead of <Ngf8>). I still think the correct move-order should be <20.Qh6> first. That way, when White takes on <g6>, it will be with check: a huge difference |
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Sep-24-11
| | Jimfromprovidence: <morf> <scormus> I went with 21...Ndf8 because I know it does not lose material right away, unlike the text. Whether it's ultimately better I do not know, but the winning path for white seems much harder to find with this variation. My thought process was for black to concede no material, which led to 22 Nxh5 Re7 23 Nxf6+ Kf7 24 Nh5 Ke8 25 Ng7+ Kd7, leaving black up a bishop but down three pawns.
click for larger viewThere's a lot of ways for white to go here. As I stated earlier, he can simplify by trading down a knight and rook for bishop and rook and then push his f pawn after 26 Nxe6 Rxe6 27 Rxe6 Kxe6.
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He can also go 26 Na4, threatening 27 Nc5+, triple-attacking the bishop. This looks simpler. 
click for larger view<morf> I do not like 20 Qh6 first because 20...f5 shuts out the bishop. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | rilkefan: Nice puzzle. I didn't work it out past the second or third move, but did at least see the various elements except for f4. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | morfishine: <Jimfromprovidence> Yes <20...f5> is correct. Early in my analysis, I saw that and moved away from <20.Qh6> but for some reason, came back to <20.Qh6> and this time didn't consider it thinking <20...Bf7> was best. The curious thing about this whole laborious process is I was able to identify <Ndf8> as an improvement over <Ngf8>, despite my flawed line starting with <20.Qh6>! Funny thing, chess. Great posting today! :) |
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| Sep-24-11 | | Dr. J: <JimfP 20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6 <Ndf8 22.Nxf6+ Kf7>
click for larger viewHere 23.Qg5 looks good, as White wins the d-pawn with continuing attack, e.g., 23.Qg5 Rc8 24.Ncxd5 Bxd5 25.Nxd5 Rxe1 26.Qf5+ Kg7 27.Rxe1 
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| Sep-24-11 | | Dr. J: <mario1031: Instead of 21...Ngf8 could 21...Nh4 have defended? with the idea of 22...Nf5 if no other forced move was req'd?> No-one seems to have commented on this interesting suggestion. The best I see is 22.Nxh5 Nf5 23.Qg6+ Kf8 24.Rxe6 Nxe6 25.Qxf5, and White seems to get at least 3 pawns for the exchange, plus continuing attack. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | Mulyahnto: Has anyone looked at <20. Bxg6 Nxg6 21. Qh6 Ndf8 22. Nxh5 Re7 23. Rxe6 Nxe6 24. Qxg6>? I can't find a good defense for black here. Or even after <22...Qe7 23 Rxe6 Nxe6> white seems to end up a lot better. <Abuzic> I don't see 22....Rc7, do you mean 22....Re7? |
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| Sep-24-11 | | Mulyahnto: I don't know if anyone has continued the line posted by morfishine. <20. Bxg6 Nxg6 21. Qh6 Ndf8 22. Nxh5 Qc7 23. Nxf6+ Kf7 24. Nxe8 Rxe8 (Kxe8 Rxe6) 25. f4> followed by f5. Looks won for white. |
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| Sep-24-11 | | sevenseaman: Its been a tough POTD that has generated some real thought-provoking postings from a clutch of enthusiastic followers. |
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| Sep-25-11 | | abuzic: <Mulyahnto: Has anyone looked at <20. Bxg6 Nxg6 21. Qh6 Ndf8 22. Nxh5 Re7 23. Rxe6 Nxe6 24. Qxg6>? I can't find a good defense for black here. Or even after <22...Qe7 23 Rxe6 Nxe6> white seems to end up a lot better.
<Abuzic> I don't see 22....Rc7, do you mean 22....Re7?> I must apologize, thank you for the observation. I found another mistake in the line: 26.Rh7. I have already posted this earlier, you can see my earlier posts, which include this variation, but not considering 23.Rxe6.
For the corrections this is how it should be:
abuzic: <On 21...Ndf8>
20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6 Ndf8 22.Nxh5
<22...Re7> 23.Nxf6+ Kf7 24.Nh5 Ke8 25.f4 Rh7 <(25...Kd7 26.f5 Bxf5 27.Nf6+ Kc8 28.Rc1 Kb8 29.Rxf5 Ka7 30.Nfxd5)> 26.Rxe6+ Kf7 27.Rxg6 Rxh6 28.Rxh6...interesting position, but white stands better. I can further expand the variations of this line adding your proposed 23.Rxe6: 20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6 Ndf8 22.Nxh5 Re7 23.Nxf6+ <(23.Rxe6 is met with 23...Rh7 24.Nxf6+ Qxf6 25.Rxf6 Rxh6)> Kf7 24.Nh5 Ke8 25.f4 <(25.Ng7+ and 25.Qg5 are other less effective alternatives)> 25...Rh7 <(25...Kd7 26.f5 Bxf5 27.Nf6+ Kc8 28.Rc1 Kb8 29.Rxf5 Ka7 30.Nfxd5)> 26.Rxe6+ Kf7 27.Rxg6 Rxh6 28.Rxh6...interesting position, but white stands better. I hope I didn't err again... |
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| Sep-25-11 | | abuzic: <Mulyahnto: I don't know if anyone has continued the line posted by morfishine.
<20. Bxg6 Nxg6 21. Qh6 Ndf8 22. Nxh5 Qc7 23. Nxf6+ Kf7 24. Nxe8 Rxe8 (Kxe8 Rxe6) 25. f4> followed by f5. Looks won for white.> After 20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6 Nfd8 22.Nxh5 Qc7 23.Nxf6+ Kf7, white has many winiing contiuations: -24.f4, I have commented on this earlier;
-24.Nh5 Kg8 25.f4 Qf7 26.Ne4! dxe4 27.f5 Nh4 28.Nf6+ Qxf6 29.Qxf6 Nxf5 30.d5 Nh7 31.Qg6+ Ng7 32.dxe6 Rxe6 33.Qf7+ Kh8 34.Qxb7; -24.Nxe8 (you refer to) Rxe8 <(24...Kxe8 25.f4)> 25.f4 Bf5 26.Rxe8 Kxe8 27.g4 Bxg4 28.f5 Ne7 29.f6 Nf5 30.Qg5 Qc4 31.Re1+ Kd7 32.Qxg4 Qxd4+ 33.Qxd4 Nxd4 34.Re7+ Kc6...etc, white wins, but there is a lot of maneuvering. So 24.f4 or 24.Nh5 are stronger than 24.Nxe8. |
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| Sep-25-11 | | morfishine: <Mulyahnto> I think you meant <jimfromprovidence> who posted that continuation <21...Ndf8> starting with 20.Bxg6. I had come across this defense <21.Ndf8>
which caused me to abandon <20.Bxg6>. Give credit to <jimfromprovidence> for fully exploring the line starting with 20.Bxg6 which included the defense 21.Ndf8 |
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| Sep-25-11 | | abuzic: <Dr. J: <mario1031: Instead of 21...Ngf8 could 21...Nh4 have defended? with the idea of 22...Nf5 if no other forced move was req'd?>
No-one seems to have commented on this interesting suggestion. The best I see is 22.Nxh5 Nf5 23.Qg6+ Kf8 24.Rxe6 Nxe6 25.Qxf5, and White seems to get at least 3 pawns for the exchange, plus continuing attack.>
(I'm sure you mean 24...Rxe6)
You can see my post on this on page 1:
20.Bxg6 Nxg6 21.Qh6 Nh4, white may continue 22.Nxh5 Nf5 23.Qg6+ Kh8 <(23...Kf8 24.Rxe6 as you suggest or 24.g4! Bf7 25.Qh7 Bxh5 26.Qh8+ Kf7 27.Qxh5+ Kg8 28.Qxf5 should win)> 24.Rxe6 Rxe6 25.Qxf5 and the d5 pawn will fall. |
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| Sep-25-11 | | LIFE Master AJ: I looked at this (Sat.) for a long time, but never commented. (My back was hurting.) |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 20.Bxg6