|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Sep-19-07
 | | keypusher: Or even Nimzowitsch vs Tarrasch, 1914? |
|
| Sep-19-07 | | euripides: <key> yes, but it was never any secret Siggy liked his bishops. Nimzo kept this well-hidden. |
|
| Sep-19-07 | | Shams: Nimzowitsch is full of it. Double exclam for 7.dxc5, right. |
|
| Apr-12-08 | | stupidiot21: now thats what i call a slugfest |
|
| May-27-09 | | shalgo: Both Nimzowitsch and Pachman suggest that 15.Qe2 is a strong move and that 15.Bd4 would have been a mistake, because of 15...Qc7 16.Qe2 Ng4! 17.h3 e5! Yet both also pass over Salwe's 15...Rac8 in silence. Isn't this move a mistake, as it loses a tempo in the fight over the d4- and e5-squares? Black would probably have done better to play 15...Bxe5 16.Nxe5 Be8, intending Nd7. For example, 17.Rfe1 Nd7 18.Nxd7 Bxd7 and Black's f-file play looks as valuable as White's on the e-file. I don't think White has more than a perpetual after 19.Qh5. If instead of exchanging on d7 White plays 18.Nf3, then 18...Bh5 19.Qxe6+ Qxe6 20.Rxe6 Bxf3 21.gxf3 Rxf3 and Black should be okay in the ending, as White has a lot of pawn weaknesses. |
|
Oct-18-10
 | | kingscrusher: There is an element of overprotection in this game, but I think it vividly demonstrates swapping occupation of the center of pawns, with piece outposts instead. |
|
Oct-18-10
| | kingscrusher: Jonathan Sarfati: How do you equate Tarrasch's variation with dxc5 with the deep Nimzovich idea of giving up the center pawns for piece outposts?! You don't think Nimzovich's My system was a key instrument used by the Hypermodern School to teach findings about useful exceptions to the theories of Steinitz and Tarrasch?! You don't believe in the Hypermodern School?! Is this really the case? |
|
Oct-18-10
| | keypusher: <kingscrusher: Jonathan Sarfati: How do you equate Tarrasch's variation with dxc5 with the deep Nimzovich idea of giving up the center pawns for piece outposts?! > How do you distinguish them? Why does Tarrasch suggest dxc5? |
|
Oct-18-10
| | kingscrusher: keypusher: Well cxd4 fixes White's weakness on d4, and maybe even forcibly wins a pawn in certain positions. So dxc5 might in some positions be a forced move, otherwise cxd4 would be winning material basically. However, Tarrasch was I think not really "dogmatic" - he was trying to simplify Stienitz's concepts, and although he may have come across as dogmatic, I think systems like the Tarrasch defence where black accepts the IQP for strong counterplay are anything but dogmatic - more dynamic. There was though I believe a fiece competitive personal rivalry between Nimzovich and Tarrasch, and I think Nimzo did really want to radically depart and challenge Tarrasch's ideas. |
|
Oct-18-10
| | kingscrusher: I have video annotated this game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFPk...
It will form part of the Evolution of Style video series I am working on as a long term project: http://www.chessworld.net/chessclub... |
|
Oct-18-10
| | keypusher: <kingscrusher>
dxc5 and exf6 by Tarrasch:
Tarrasch vs M Kuerschner, 1890 |
|
Oct-19-10
| | kingscrusher: keypusher: Yes, I think that in order to play against black's backward e-pawn exf6 is necessary - and maybe that was really the focus of Tarrasch's strategy. Also Black's kingside is a bit more exposed. In this game, there was a very controlled substitution of the pawn chain by blockading pieces. But I admit the two games do seem to have very similar events - like the Qc2 and Bh7's. Maybe a lot of Nimzovich's "My system" is repackaging of existing example games, in such a way to make the concepts more reusable. I think for example Staunton used Overprotection and fianchettoed bishops a long time before Nimzovich. A lot of the structural weaknesses were identified a long time before by Philidor. What "My system" represented and why it was so influencial on the evolution of chess style, is the bringing together of all the aspects of "element management" - and nice new interesting terms like: "Rook on the 7th"
"Restrain-blockade-destroy"
"Undermining"
etc
So that players later could re-use these concepts quite easily. |
|
Oct-19-10
| | keypusher: <kingscrusher>
<In this game, there was a very controlled substitution of the pawn chain by blockading pieces. > You're right. Presumably Nimzo would have been horrified by Tarrasch's Ng5. (Note, though, that even Nimzowitsch eventually gives up his blockade.) I certainly wouldn't say Tarrasch-Kuerschner undermines any claim this game has to originality. But there are some Steinitz games that seem to anticipate this one more closely, e.g. Steinitz vs Max Weiss, 1882. And I suspect, if you really looked, you'd find examples of White trading off his pawns and putting pieces on blockading squares against the French that are older than this game. One critical discovery we all make very early in our chess careers is that pawns don't capture straight ahead, after all. That makes putting a piece directly in front of a pawn a very natural thing to do. |
|
| Mar-27-12 | | bystander: 18) Rae1? limits the space of the Rook on f1 and makes 18...Ne4! possible. My silicon monster suggests:
a)19) Be4x de4x 20) Qe4x Bb5 (attacks the rook on f1) 21) c4 Bc4x 22) Nc4x Qe4x 23) Qe6x+ Qe6x 25) Re6x Bb4x
b) 19) Qg4 Be5x 20)Qe6x+ Bf7 21) Qe5x Qe5x 22) Be5x Nd2.
After 18) Rfe1 Ne4? 19) Be4x de4x 20) Qe4x with better play for white
My computer prefers 18) f4 and I understand that white blockades e5 very firm, but I cannot see how white and black should continue after 18) f4. |
|
May-11-12
 | | Octavia: <niklas> In my German book N omits 38 Kf1 Bc6 but in my American "Blockade" trans Joseph Platz, they're included. In My system N talks quite clearly about where Salwe went wrong: He had to play 6...cd ! |
|
May-11-12
| | Octavia: Hi <kingscrusher> could you remove your utube link, please? It doesn't work & made my comp crush twice. |
|
| Oct-30-12 | | Naniwazu: It seems that 27. Qe2 wins instantly..exd4 28. Qxe7 Qxe7 29. Rxe7 Rxc3  |
|
| May-23-13 | | Emmykarpov: Please I am in Nigeria, how do these materials reach this axis? |
|
| Nov-06-13 | | davide2013: 15.Bd4 is NOT a mistake, Nimzowitsch's analysis in this case is wrong, because after 15...Qc7; white would play 16.Re1, not Qe2.
If Pachman just copied and paste Nimzowitsch's analysis, then there is a case for understanding Petrosian's words when he said that Nimzowitsch went often too far to demonstrate his point, but his analysis were not correct.
However it would be interesting to know the year in which Nimzowitsch wrote the analysis, because Nimzowitsch vs Tarrasch 1912, one year after this game still has Nimzowitsch playing 6.Bd3, instead of Be2 which should protect more the Pd4 in his words. |
|
Mar-22-15
 | | tpstar: Planning In Segments:
https://youtu.be/vJQiOnLCou0 |
|
Apr-11-16
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: Actually, the overrated "My System" scared a lot of people away from allowing 7.dxc5. But this Captain Kennedy had shown the correct course for Black way back in 1849! E Lowe vs H Kennedy, 1849 He had a clearly won game but threw it away. The important thing is to prevent 9.b4 with 8... a5. The first World Junior Champion Borislav Ivkov revived it to good effect over a century later in J Pokojowczyk vs Ivkov, 1971. |
|
| Apr-11-16 | | RookFile: If Nimzo was alive today I'd hire him as director of marketing for my company. |
|
| May-16-17 | | Zephyr10: "RookFile: If Nimzo was alive today I'd hire him as director of marketing for my company." Indeed, I don't know if a greater proclamation of chess genius has ever been made on account of the win of a SINGLE PAWN. ;-) |
|
Dec-18-22
| | kingscrusher: <Zephyr10><RookFile><Jonathan Sarfati> Sorry guys but dxc5 passes the modern engine test. The example given in J Pokojowczyk vs Ivkov, 1971 is flawed giving a major advert for a5. a5 and so what exactly? White doesn't need to play a4 just giving equality and no option later for Nd2-b3 because the pawn is now on a4 and not on a2. Nimzovich was a leading hypermodernist and is actually validated by modern engines. This whole line is to White's advantage. Aron Nimzowitsch - Georg Salwe 1-0 15.0, Karlsbad 1911 click for larger view
Analysis by Stockfish 15 - 3 threads max:
1. ⩲ (0.61): 7...Bxc5 8.0-0 a5 9.Qe2 Nge7 10.Nbd2 a4 11.b4 axb3 12.Nxb3 Ba3 13.Rb1 Qc7 14.Nbd4 Nxd4 15.cxd4 Nc6 16.h4 h6 17.h5 Be7 18.Rb2 Na5 19.Nh2 Nc4 20.Rb3 Na5 21.Rb1 Qc3 22.Be3 Bc6 White is slightly better (Gavriel, 18.12.2022)
Nimzovich implemented concepts in opening variations - and the Nimzo-Indian is a successful brain-child of his as well as this particular line against the french. f6 can be dissuaded by accurate moves if a5 had been played - notably Qe2 and if f6 then c4 as I noted on the other game. Respect the concepts being implemented in opening variations - how many players today invent concepts and then use their own openings to implement those concepts - not many. You all should be praising Nimzovich and not calling him a salesman :) And anyone on CG.com not having "My system" need to get this book on chess strategy from Amazon straight away - there is a modern algebraic version too so that should satisfy the pedantic whiners on Amazon about "OH the print is bad.. or the notation unreadable, etc... etc " Enough said. |
|
| Dec-18-22 | | SChesshevsky: <...not having "My System" need to get this book on chess strategy. ..> Am a big Nimzo fan and very much agree. "Praxis" probably worth it too. But also think one's better understanding of principles and basic strategic ideas, the greater gain from the books. This is due to, what I think, is pretty weak explanation as to what is really going on. Nimzo seems to use a lot of dramatic language and kind of hints about what's actually happening but rarely states clearly the key points. This game for example. A key idea in the Advance is maintaining the e5 bind. Causing black to make some concessions to break the stifling pawn. Here, after 12...Nf6, blacks concessions look to be nearly losing. White has the better and threatening B's, better pawn structure, weakened black king protection and most importantly black is stuck with already compromised hanging pawns. It's pretty clear Nimzo has two aims. Play against the hanging pawns weakness which allows time to use the threatening B's and build pressure against the King. Nimzo kind of hints at these blatant ideas but never actually mentions them. Not atypical in his writing. I've got ideas why this is the case. And think it diminishes his work. But the benefits from "My System" and "Praxis" probably still outweigh. Though getting the most benefit does take some additional effort. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
Annotations by 