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Jan-28-14 | | Boomie: <ajile>
Heh. I guess when you kill everyone you know, you get ronery. |
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Jan-28-14 | | Everyone: Heh, why is it always your teammate <Everyone>? |
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Jan-28-14 | | cro777: <kwid: I canvas to keep this world team together for the sake of chess development and to serve as a reference forum. We can safely assume that high rated players spent a lot of time preparing for their opponents and have others to help in their preparations which should really help our team if we were to adopt these presumed extensively analysed openings for us. I was thinking to take a line from Carlsen or other leading players and try to find the reason why they choose to play it. And furthermore, if such lines are played with a high frequency and proven success rate why are their opponents willing to allow it since they most certainly will use engines for their game preparations. We as a team could try to find the correct solutions if they exist and use these data or move discovery for our opening choice. I think in terms of reaching familiar middlegame positions or even as far ahead to the endgame which are easy for us to resolve because we studied them.> This corresponds to the main characteristics of modern chess preparation. "Chess preparation has become a systematic process: winning starts with planning before the game...The most important aim of modern preparation, both for proffessionals and for ambitious amateurs, is to get a playable position that you understand better than your opponent…The level of the computers involved in the players' preparation is rapidly increasing. The art of interaction between the player and the computer has come to the fore. At the very top, players reached a new, higher level of interaction, although this is an area where huge hidden resources remain." (GM Vladimir Tukmakov). I have prepared a material for studying Carlsen's games (there are four books on the subject). Having in mind the above considerations, what study plan would you suggest? |
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Jan-28-14 | | Ceri: Hi, Team,
When I was playing the advanced variation against the French I was aware of the technique used by GM Grischuk to aim for a "Good Knight vs bad Bishop" ending. Such set-ups guided my strategy. Then I switched to Nc3 variations. I won a game against a strong opponent, Carmelo Risquet. He was the guy who used to work for IBM playing chess against their programmes to strengthen them. He was doing this just before Deep Blue. In that game against Carmelo I had no particular pre-existing strategy, apart from grabbing space and improving pieces. I won it but it seemed less satisfying, somehow, than executing a plan of action. Cheers,
Ceri |
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Jan-28-14 | | kwid: <cro777:> <kwid: - [serve as a reference] - [ material for studying Carlsen's games] - Having in mind the above considerations, what study plan would you suggest?> Now this is a tall order indeed. But most if not all chess players would be great full to get their hands on it. Yes I did suggest that it would take a team such as ours having the already displayed ability to perform such a task. As to your specific question what study plan should we use, I suggest the same consultation process for generating moves by the team just like in our previous games. Only the emphases has to be as Ceri just pointed out, on the reason why we should aim for a certain direction or reach for a desired goal. Our engines would then be used as a tool for sliding back and forth between the points of where we are to where we need to be and thus in total control of the game. Such a method would work against any opponent if we first try to identify their main objectives and then find the ways to counter it. It would require a willingness from the team to run their engines over a game or replaying a particular opening line to see why a certain move order has been chosen for that encounter. Then study or replay any historical relevant material of this opening line with the help of our engine but in disregard of the reported game outcome. If we share our findings we will increase our ability and capacity to reveal the true facts about the evolution of an opening line and the possible reasons for the other variations deviating from the main line. A guidance for finding various references of any perceived degree of importance would then become our starting point. All contributions of the generated engine evaluations together with our human perception based on our varying degree of knowledge will then become the main factor for building voting consensuses for the best move candidate with the aim to reach our set goal. |
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Jan-28-14 | | kwid: It may be helpful to give you my assessment of Carlson's opening choices. I think he has acquired a knowledge from historical game records guiding him from the opening to the endgame.
His ability of depth perception is thus based on practice to get into familiar positions which gives him confidence to be able to outwork his opponent in such positions. If we were to study his demonstrated methods we could identify how to counter it. Admittedly this only applies for engine assistant games. It definitely will not work in an OTB encounter where his human talent to calculate very deep will be trump unless ways are found to limit or make it less influential because of being in possession of value proven lines. I am convinced that this team could generate such lines affecting the rate of change to present opening theory and provide great value for ever chess player. |
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Jan-28-14 | | devere: <Boomie: I agree that "Kim Pawn Ill is creative but I don't think it is funny. Nothing about North Korea is funny. Political correctness has nothing to do with it as far as I can see.> I agree it is doubtful making jokes about a regime that routinely murders people. Ernst Lubitsch pulled it off in 1942 in the film "To Be Or Not To Be", but that was before information about the death camps was widely known. |
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Jan-28-14 | | cro777: <kwid>, <Ceri> Thank you for your feedback. As Tukmakov pointed out, at the higher level winning starts with planning before the game. We can begin the planning process for the next game as soon as we know who our opponent is. But I would like to start some preliminary work centered on the suggested method (look at currently preferred opening lines from the most successful players, review the theoretical developments of these choices, etc). Do you have any suggestion about the opening line(s) to start with. In the next GM challenge we are supposed to have the white pieces. Starting with Carlsen, I find these general characteristics of his play, highlighted by GM Rowson, interesting: - navigate towards positions where there are no obvious moves, - see complexity where others assume simplicity,
- develop exquisite timing for when to change the nature of the position. |
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Jan-28-14 | | ajile: <devere: <Boomie: I agree that "Kim Pawn Ill is creative but I don't think it is funny. Nothing about North Korea is funny. Political correctness has nothing to do with it as far as I can see.> I agree it is doubtful making jokes about a regime that routinely murders people. Ernst Lubitsch pulled it off in 1942 in the film "To Be Or Not To Be", but that was before information about the death camps was widely known.> What these people do isn't funny but that isn't the point is it. It's a play on words that is funny whether it's a dictator or a celebrity. Your objection seems to stem from the idea we should simply pretend these evildoers don't exist. But I believe history shows that exposing dictators with cartoons and comedy not only slows them down but activates action against them. Just look at what Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert do every week. Does anyone here really think their comedy doesn't affect the quality of life in America? They expose the evil deeds of others with their humor. |
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Jan-28-14 | | Hugin: 1.b3 e5 2.Bb2 Nc6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.Na3 Na5 6.Be2 Be7 7.d4 exd4 8.exd4 0-0 9.Nf3 d5 10.c3 Bf5 11.0-0 Re8 12.Nc2 Be4 13.Ne5 Bd6 14.Ne3 c5 15.Bb5 Re7 16.f4 cxd4 17.cxd4 Rc8 18.Rc1 Rxc1 19.Qxc1 a6 20.Be2 Nc6 21.Qd2 Re8 22.Bxa6 Qa8 23.Bb5 Qxa2 24.Ba4 Ba3 25.Nd1 Ra8 26.Nxc6 bxc6 27.Rf2 Ra6 28.Nc3 Qxb2 29.Qxb2 Bxb2 30.Rxb2 Bd3 31.Ra2 h5 32.Ra1 Rb6 33.Re1 h4 34.g3 hxg3 35.hxg3 Bf5 36.Nd1 Ne4 37.Ne3 Bd7 38.Kg2 Kf8 39.Kf3 Rb4 40.Nc2 Rb7 41.Ne3 Ke7 42.Nc4 Rb4 43.Ne5 Rxd4 44.Bxc6 Be6 45.f5 Ng5+ 46.Kf2 Bxf5 47.Nf3+ Ne4+ 48.Ke3 Rb4 49.Bxd5 Nxg3 50.Rg1 Nh5 51.Ne5 Rb5 52.Nc6+ Kf8 53.Ra1 g5 54.Kd4 Nf4 55.Bc4 Ne6+ 56.Kc3 Rb7 57.b4 Kg7 58.b5 g4 59.Rf1 Kg6 60.Bd5 Kg5 61.Nd4 Nxd4 62.Bxb7 Nxb5+ 63.Kd2 Nd6 64.Ba8 Bg6 65.Rc1 f5 66.Rc6 Ne8 67.Ke3 f4+ 68.Kf2 Bd3 69.Rc5+ Kh4 70.Bg2 Nf6 71.Re5 Bc2 72.Bc6 Bb1 73.Re1 Bf5 74.Re5 Bc2 75.Kg2 Bd3 76.Kf2 Nh7 77.Re8 Bc2 78.Rb8 Bf5 79.Ra8 Bg6 80.Rh8 Kg5 81.Ra8 Nf6 82.Ra5 click for larger view
Draw... |
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Jan-28-14 | | Hugin: <kwid: It may be helpful to give you my assessment of Carlson's opening choices. I think he has acquired a knowledge from historical game records guiding him from the opening to the endgame. His ability of depth perception is thus based on practice to get into familiar positions which gives him confidence to be able to outwork his opponent in such positions.
If we were to study his demonstrated methods we could identify how to counter it. Admittedly this only applies for engine assistant games. It definitely will not work in an OTB encounter where his human talent to calculate very deep will be trump unless ways are found to limit or make it less influential because of being in possession of value proven lines. I am convinced that this team could generate such lines affecting the rate of change to present opening theory and provide great value for ever chess player.> Carlsen finds most of his moves inside 10 seconds....That means it's more instinct then calculations........ |
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Jan-28-14 | | Hugin: I suspect Magnus Carlsen strenght is heavely based on pattern reckognition and only when forced he calculate much.....He sorta just know what he should do...In shape he is nr 1 in this...... |
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Jan-28-14 | | kwid: cro777: <kwid>, <Ceri> Interesting definitions from GM Rowson re the characteristics of Carlson's
playing strategy.
In my view it appears that his studies or preparations leading him into positions which are seemingly unsolvable when first encountered. Even his fast engines are getting stuck at those positions which he was guiding them into it. He then would attempt to prove the correctness of his lead and while attempting to solve it in his favor he is becoming aware of the complexity for humans to find the correct move order. Even so most positions when arrived via theoretical correct move order do lead to equalization, he has the confidence to walk the tight rope with lines hoping to tip the balance of power into his favor. He plays very sound move orders and chooses wisely for his selections of opening choices against specific opponents. His preparations for the World Crown led his opponent astray based on the correct assumption that his superior calculating ability should prevail. |
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Jan-28-14 | | kwid: Jan-28-14
< Hugin:> <kwid: Carlsen finds most of his moves inside 10 seconds....That means it's more instinct then calculations........>This hold true for most gifted chess players. It is the human perception usually acquired from visual observations over time and practicing positions familiarization together with a fast memory recall ability for the ways to get there and solve them. Yes Carlson is a very talented human. But to be fair one could assume that there might be other human geniuses even better than him but have had no opportunity or desire to follow his steps. I am hopeful that we have on our team talents yet to be discovered but may assist us in our endeavor to play perfect chess. |
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Jan-28-14 | | cro777: <kwid: He plays very sound move orders and chooses wisely for his selections of opening choices against specific opponents.> GM Colin Crouch made similar observation. According to him Carlsen, when playing against an opponent that he knows well, and an opponent he
has analysed in depth, will tend to grasp very quickly his opponent’s strengths or weaknesses. In preparing his openings, he will not try to catch up with the latest analysis twenty
moves deep. He would be thinking instead of which sort of opening would make his opponent feel slightly uncomfortable, and therefore more likely to make a mistake. |
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Jan-28-14
 | | Domdaniel: <Tiggler> -- <At the time I agreed with <DomDaniel> that 10.d4 was unlikely, being unthematic for the opening.> I may have expressed that too strongly at the time. I still reckon that SW was unlikely to play 10.d4, but I now accept it may have been a better move -- if White, at move 10, was already willing to play for a draw. Luckily, he wasn't. |
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Jan-28-14 | | Tiggler: <RandomVisitor: <Tiggler><What about 10.Nce2? >> Thank you for your response (and extra engine run?), which appears to confirm my intuition that this move is better than 10.Nf3 . So I still think that 10.Nf3? was the losing move, and that at least two alternatives (10.d4 and 10.Nce2) were better. |
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Jan-28-14 | | Tiggler: <Domdaniel: <Tiggler> -- <At the time I agreed with <DomDaniel> that 10.d4 was unlikely, being unthematic for the opening.>
I may have expressed that too strongly at the time.> In the heat of battle, most of us are inclined to express our views more forcibly than we should. In hopes of being heard, perhaps? |
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Jan-28-14 | | Tiggler: Tiggler: <Tiggler: <RandomVisitor: <Tiggler><What about 10.Nce2? >> Thank you for your response (and extra engine run?), which appears to confirm my intuition that this move is better than 10.Nf3 . So I still think that 10.Nf3? was the losing move, and that at least two alternatives (10.d4 and 10.Nce2) were better.> Oops,I should have said (twice) in the above, 10.Nc3 (not Nf3). 10.d3 may also have been better than 10.Nc3? |
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Jan-28-14 | | RandomVisitor: chessgames.com has responded on their forum to my comment on the inappropriate "nickname" for this game: RandomVisitor: I hate to say this, but "Kim Pawn Ill" is really a poor choice for a nickname for a game that we really worked hard at. It pokes fun at someone and is in poor taste. "Ginger Snapped" is probably the best choice and avoids controversy. You guys just made a wrong call on that one. chessgames.com: <RV> In retrospect, I think you're right. |
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Jan-28-14 | | morfishine: <RandomVisitor> FWIW: <CG> makes the wrong call with puns on almost a daily basis; just check out the GOTD |
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Jan-28-14 | | Tiggler: <morf>:<FWIW: <CG> makes the wrong call with puns on almost a daily basis; just check out the GOTD> Puns are hardly the highest of the satirical arts. So, gruesome puns are almost the best kind, in a weird way. Anyhow, Americans, of the US variety, are not expected to have a clue about any form of irony, are they (we)? Hint: was this post ironic, or not?
;~) |
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Jan-28-14 | | ajile: <RandomVisitor: chessgames.com has responded on their forum to my comment on the inappropriate "nickname" for this game:> Ironically if this game was played in North Korea the current pun would probably land you in jail. But a lame milquetoast try like Ginger Snapped would be instantly accepted. Notwithstanding the obvious and already quoted point that Ginger Snapped is offensive directly to our opponent. But dude keep on campaigning for your misguiding mission. You get to do that all you want in this free country. |
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Jan-28-14 | | Tiggler: <But dude keep on campaigning for your misguiding mission.> Or for your (mis) guided missle (US-army speak for "missile"). Are we having fun yet? <Stunningmove> will scorn such entries in the <permanent record of this game>. Ppheweughwie. |
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Jan-28-14 | | Pedro Fernandez: Zurich Chess Challenge 2014 (Jan.29-Feb.4), Cat.XXIII, Avg. ELO: 2801. 1. M. Carlsen
2. L. Aronian
3. H. Nakamura
4. F. Caruana
5. B. Gelfand
6. V. Anand
Round Robin @ 5 rounds (Jan.30-Feb.3), Classical Chess (40/120, 20/60, 15+30/rest) plus 3 Rapid games (Feb.4), where those GMs who played 3 games with black pieces will play with white pieces. Total games: 15+3 = 18. |
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