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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 564 OF 598 ·
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| Jan-16-14 | | bigpeta66: <kwid> ref your new m/c and saving data I just remembered that the easiest way to do it is with a cross over cable. either usb or cat5. This is a special cable wired such that you dont need a network connection box or router. some of them come as a kit with instructions on how to complete the xfer. |
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Jan-16-14
 | | Domdaniel: <devere> -- <Voting is open to anyone in the world who signs up (except our opponent), including people who may have no genuine interest in the contest.>
A good point. The votes for ...Be3 are as close to unanimous as makes no difference. So what if about 6 people vote for eccentric moves, and 4 of them even offer draws?
The team's unity of mind is still impressive. And we can now regard the game as won. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | devere: < jrredfield: <<ajile>: Be3 does not have 100% of the votes; at the time of writing 180 votes have been cast, out of which 'only' a 175 are for Be3.
The other votes are for a draw offer. Why settle for that now?? Am I missing something? Or are some reluctant to grab the prize that so many have worked so hard for, perhaps out of sympathy for GMSW and his precarious plight?> Voting is open to anyone in the world who signs up (except our opponent), including people who may have no genuine interest in the contest. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | jrredfield: <Domdaniel: <devere> -- <Voting is open to anyone in the world who signs up (except our opponent), including people who may have no genuine interest in the contest.> A good point. The votes for ...Be3 are as close to unanimous as makes no difference. So what if about 6 people vote for eccentric moves, and 4 of them even offer draws? The team's unity of mind is still impressive. And we can now regard the game as won.> Very true! Go team! |
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Jan-16-14
 | | Penguincw: 33...Be3 would make a great Tuesday/Wednesday puzzle. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | kwid: Jan-16-14
<Premium Chessgames Member DcGentle: <DaringSpeculator: <kwid: BTW, do we have a shorter mate line?> By 4 moves only!>
Well, there is a line that is shorter than 70 moves. And it's <not> by <33... Be3>, the move the team played.Position after <33... Rge8>> are you sure? |
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Jan-16-14
 | | AylerKupp: <Summary of White's choices after 33.Rxf4 Bd3>
click for larger viewThis was a fishing expedition on my part. The character of the game has changed tremendously in the last few moves as a result of GMSW's move choices and we are now looking at a semi-open position (according to my definitions) full of tactical possibilities, the kind of positions where engines do well. So I widened my net from MPV=3 to MPV=5 to see if these engines could catch some previously unknown fish. They couldn't; all came up with 34.dxe3 as being White's best move although, surprisingly, it took Critter until d=29 to reach that conclusion. Here is a summary of 4 engines' evaluations, sorted in order of descending Ratings Adjusted Average. And no need to list how the engines ranked the moves, all ranked them in the same order according to their evaluations except for the last 2 moves. Spike, as usual, marches to its own drummer. But at least it has reconsidered, it now chooses 35...d1=Q instead of the more "economical" 35...d1=R. Maybe it "thought" that 35...d1=R would be rubbing it in. ;-) White's Bouquet Critter Komodo Spike
Move d=29 d=29 d=32 d=35 <St.Avg> <RAdj.Avg> 34.dxe3 [-3.24] [-3.45] [-3.13] [-3.74] <[-3.46]> <[-3.38]> 34.Rf1 [-3.55] [-3.87] [-3.88] [-5.13] <[-4.11]> <[-3.87]> 34.Rfg4 [-5.49] [-4.39] [-4.49] [-6.65] <[-5.26]> <[-4.84]> 34.Rf3 [-5.60] [-4.39] [-4.90] [-6.70] <[5.40]> <[-5.03]> 34.Rh4 [-5.45] [-5.94] [-5.15] [------] <[-5.51]> <[-5.48]> 34.Rgg4 [------] [------] [------] [-6.85] <[-6.85]> <[-6.85]> Now, just because 34.dxe3 is unanimously evaluated as the highest rated move it doesn't necessarily mean that he will play it, he has surprised us before. But his choices are being down the exchange (34.dxe3), 2 or 3 pawns, 2 pawns <plus> the exchange, or even worse. So I would not be surprised if his next move is 0-1, perhaps as soon as tomorrow evening. I'll post the details of 34.dxe3 and the most likely alternative (assuming that GMSW will play the apparently 2nd best move instead of the apparently best move) but just with a diagram of the final position so you can see if you agree with the engines' evaluations. After all, the more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets. But if GMSW could see these diagrams and examined the lines then I have no doubt that his next move would be 0-1. |
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Jan-16-14
| | AylerKupp: <Detailed analysis of Black's options after 33...Be3 34.dxe3> Mercifully without commentary, for which I am sure that you are all grateful. Besides, a diagram is worth 1000 words, just count the material. <Bouquet 1.8>: [-3.24], d=29: 34....d2 35.Rg1 d1Q 36.Rxd1 Rxd1 37.e5 Rb8 38.e6+ Ke8 39.Bd4 Rd2+ 40.Kb1 Rb5 41.h4 h5 42.Kc1 Rh2 43.Kb1 Rd5 44.Rf3 Rxh4 45.Kc2 Ke7 46.Kd3 Rg4 47.Kc4 Rb5 48.Kd3 g5 49.e4 h4 50.Ke3 Rg2 51.Rh3
click for larger view<Critter 1.6a>: [-3.45], d=29: 34...d2 35.Rg1 d1Q 36.Rxd1 Rxd1 37.e5 Rb8 38.e6+ Ke8 39.Bd4 Rb5 40.Kb2 Rd2+ 41.Kb1 Rd5 42.Rf1 Rh2 43.h4 Rxh4 44.Bb6 Rh3 45.Bxc7 Rxe3 46.Bb6 Rxb3+ 47.Ka2 Rc3 48.c7 Rd6 49.Ba5 Rd2+
click for larger view<Komodo 6>: [-3.13], d=32: 34...d2 35.Rg1 d1Q 36.Rxd1 Rxd1 37.e5 Rb8 38.e6+ Ke8 39.Bd4 Rd2+ 40.Kb1 Rb5 41.Kc1 Rh2 42.Kb1 Ra5 43.Bb6 Rd5 44.Kc1 Kd8 45.Ba7 Rxh3 46.Rxb4 Rxf5 47.Kc2 Rh2+ 48.Kc3 Rff2 49.Rd4+ Ke7 50.Rd7+ Kxe6 51.Rxc7 Rc2+ 52.Kb4 g5 53.Bd4 Rh5 54.Rc8 g4 55.c7 Rb5+ 56.Ka3 Kd7 57.Rf8 f5 58.Rh8 h5 59.c8Q+ Rxc8 60.Rh7+ Kc6 61.Rh6+ Kb7 62.Rh7+ Rc7
click for larger view<Spike 1.4>: [-3.74]], d=35: 34...d2 35.Rg1 d1Q 36.Rxd1 Rxd1 37.e5 Rb8 38.e6+ Kf8 39.Bd4 Rc1 40.Kb2 Rxc6 41.Rf2 Rd8 42.Rd2 Ke8 43.h4 a5 44.Rf2 h5 45.Rf1 Rd5 46.Rf2 Rcd6 47.Kc2 Kf8 48.Ba7 Rc6+ 49.Kb2 Rd1 50.e4 Rh1 51.Rd2 Rxh4 52.Rd8+ Ke7 53.Rd7+ Ke8 54.Rxg7 Rxe4 55.Kb1 h4
click for larger view |
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Jan-16-14
| | AylerKupp: <Detailed analysis of Black's options after 33...Be3 34.Rf1> Again without commentary, just count the material.
<Bouquet 1.8>: [-3.24], d=29: 34...Bxd2 35.h4 Be3 36.Rd1 Rge8 37.e5 fxe5 38.Rg3 Bb6 39.Rgxd3 Rxd3 40.Rxd3 Kf6 41.Rf3 Rd8 42.Rg3 Rd6 43.Kb1 Kxf5 44.Rxg7 Rxc6 45.Rf7+ Rf6 46.Rd7 Re6 47.Kc2 e4 48.Rf7+ Kg4 49.Kd1 Kxh4 50.Bc1 Rd6+ 51.Ke2 Rd3 52.Rf4+ Kh5 53.Rxe4 Rxb3 54.Re6 Kg4 55.Rxh6 Kf5 56.Kd1 a5 57.Rh5+
click for larger view<Critter 1.6a>: [-3.58], d=29: 34...Bxd2 35.Rd1 Bg5 36.e5 fxe5 37.Re6 Rd5 38.Rxe5 Rgd8 39.Re4 Re8 40.Rd4 Rxd4 41.Bxd4 d2 42.Kb2 Re4 43.Bf2 Kf6 44.Bg3 Kxf5 45.h4 Bf6+ 46.Kc2 Re6 47.Kxd2 Rxc6 48.Rf1+ Kg4 49.Rg1 Kh3 50.Bf2 Rc3 51.Rb1 a5 52.Ke2 Kg4 53.Be1 Rc2+ 54.Kd3 Rb2 55.Rxb2 Bxb2 56.h5 Bf6 57.Kc4 Kxh5 58.Bg3 Bd8 59.Kb5 Kg4 60.Be5 g5 61.Kxa5
click for larger view<Komodo 6>: [-3.88], d=32: 34...Bxd2 35.Rd1 Bg5 36.e5 a5 37.h4 Bxh4 38.Rg4 Bg5 39.Rc4 g6 40.fxg6+ Rxg6 41.exf6 Bxf6 42.Kb1 Bxb2 43.Kxb2 Rd5 44.Rd2 h5 45.Rf4+ Rf6 46.Rc4 Kg7 47.Rc1 Rg6 48.Rcd1 Rgd6 49.Rg1+ Kh6 50.Rg8 Rg6 51.Re8 Rxc6 52.Re3 Rcd6 53.Re7 Rd7 54.Re4 Kg6 55.Kc1 Rc5+ 56.Kb1 Rc3 57.Kb2
click for larger view<Spike 1.4>: [-5.13], d=35:
34...Bxd2 35.h4 Be3 36.Rg3 d2 37.Rd1 Bf2 38.Rg2 Be1 39.e5 Rd5 40.Re2 Re8 41.e6+ Kg8 42.Re4 Rxf5 43.Rxb4 Rc5 44.Re4 Rxc6 45.e7 g5 46.hxg5 hxg5 47.Ba3 Kf7 48.Rg4 Rb8 49.Re4 Rc3 50.Bb2 Rf3 51.Bd4 f5 52.Re5 g4 53.Be3 Re8 54.Bxd2 Bxd2 55.Rxd2 Rxe7 56.Ra5 f4 57.Rg2 g3 58.Rf5+ Ke6 59.Rxf4 Rxf4 60.Rxg3 Ref7 61.Ka3 Kd5 62.Rd3+ Ke4 63.Rc3 Rf3 64.Rc4+ Kd5
click for larger view |
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Jan-16-14
| | Domdaniel: <AylerKupp> Nice analysis. But I think the phrase you're looking for is "Black wins in all variations"... |
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Jan-16-14
| | AylerKupp: <<DcGentle> did you the see the eval of the move <33... Rge8> and the difference of this eval to the one of <33... Be3> ?> I had not, given that my computers were busy calculating the evals for my 3 previous useless posts. But of course I was curious; ...Rge8 had been given favorable evals from the engines in previous moves and I would see no reason why it wouldn't again. Without spending too much time on it Komodo 6's eval at d=27 for 33...Rge8 was [-1.16], compared with its eval at d=32 of [-3.13] for 34.dxe3. And I'm sure that if I let Komodo run longer its eval of 33...Rge8 will rise. We are indeed blessed to have reached a position where seemingly Omnes viae Romam ducunt. So, yes, the results will probably be equal. As far as "better", well that depends on how you define "better", and each of us has their own definition, all probably equally valid. As far as what we can learn from this, I'm not sure if I know what you mean but maybe it's not all that important, given how thick and stubborn I am. ;-) |
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| Jan-16-14 | | DcGentle: <kwid: Jan-16-14
<Premium Chessgames Member DcGentle: <DaringSpeculator: <kwid: BTW, do we have a shorter mate line?> By 4 moves only!> Well, there is a line that is shorter than 70 moves. And it's <not> by <33... Be3>, the move the team played.>
are you sure?>
Sounds incredible, I know, but I took over the black side essentially, aiming at checkmate with the technique of restriction, and White was played by Houdini... Whether there are better moves for White, I dunno. Just try it yourself ;-) The problem that arises, if you change a white move, and let the black side continue with an engine, they will have a different style. Look at <DaringSpeculator>'s checkmates. About all pawns are gone, and the white king is in the open. This works with 2 queens of course. Engines like the open game. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | DcGentle: <AylerKupp>: Well, if the eval for one move is -1.16 compared with -3.13, then one should assume that the latter will surely win, and the first one is a doubtful candidate, where the lines to a win are longer at best, if there is a win at all. I wanted to demonstrate that engine evals are exaggerating sometimes, and the general rule I have noticed already is: Positional moves, which don't apparently lead to any concrete advantage the engine can see, are evaluated worse. Prime example in our game was the eval of move 6, that dropped and made many members believe that this move was "flabbergastingly" bad. You just cannot believe all evals. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | ajile: <AylerKupp: <ajile> Besides, each of our opponent's moves have had 100% of his "vote". :-) But <MuzioFan> is right, with 176 votes for 33...Be6 and 182 votes total that means that 6 other moves have one vote. > They do NOW. But were there 6 choices for other moves AT THE TIME I posted? Also you probably mean 33..Be3 not 33..Be6. But who's quibbling over stupid stuff here right? |
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Jan-16-14
 | | mistermac: < DcGentle: <AylerKupp: Don’t you think that from a practical perspective it's kind of irrelevant?>
Well, there is a practical perspective to it, but not the one you usually see when people post lines. Of course our move was decided and this is not the reason I posted it. No, did you the see the eval of the move <33... Rge8> and the difference of this eval to the one of <33... Be3> ? More than 1.00 I guess, but nevertheless the result is equal or better. What can we learn from this?
I hope you know what I mean.>
Are you saying, <Dc> that Rge8 has a higher eval than Be3? Hear no eval, see no eval, speak no eval! |
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| Jan-16-14 | | dunamisvpm: The 33.Rxf4 move of GM SKW I think was an experiment, trying to gauge if the Team really knew what it was doing. Until our reply with his moved will be official, then I guess he will resign and salute the Team of AMATEURS! Congrats! |
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| Jan-16-14 | | dunamisvpm: In my humble opinion, I think the World team of amateurs (and that includes me) has an unofficial Elo rating of 2600+
Would anyone refute my opinion for the sake of trying to Gauge the strength of Our Team.
Thanks and may the FORCE be with us. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | DcGentle: <mistermac>: Of course not! -3.13 33... Be3
-1.16 33... Rge8
These are <AylerKupp>'s evals.
But the second choice, the one with the worse eval, worked even a bit better. Here we are trying to checkmate, this is special. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | JustWoodshifting: 2 high level engine matches taken started from <33.Rxf4--Be3>: [Event "Engine Match Games - Setup"]
[Site "My Burgh"]
[Date "2014.01.16"]
[Round "1.1"]
[White "Houdini 4 x64A"]
[Black "Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A01"]
[WhiteElo "3083"]
[BlackElo "3038"]
[Annotator "None"]
[PlyCount "100"]
[EventDate "2014.??.??"]
[WhiteTeam "Belgium"]
[BlackTeam "Belgium"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "BEL"]
[BlackTeamCountry "BEL"]
"A01: ♘imzowitsch - Larsen Attack: Modern Variation" <1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3.
e3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. g4 a6 6. Bf1 h6 7. h3 Be7 8. Bg2 d5 9. Nc3 Be6 10. Nge2 d4
11. Ne4 Nxe4 12. Bxe4 Bd5 13. Ng3 Bxe4 14. Nxe4 Qd7 15. Qf3 Nb4 16. O-O-O Nxa2+
17. Kb1 Nb4 18. Qf5 d3 19. c4 Qxf5 20. gxf5 f6 21. Rhg1 Kf7 22. Bc3 Nc6 23. Rg6
b5 24. Rdg1 Rhg8 25. c5 b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6
30. e4 Bc5 31. Rf1 Rad8 32. f4 exf4 33. Rxf4 Be3> 34. dxe3 d2 35. Rg1 d1=Q 36.
Rxd1 Rxd1 37. e5 Rb8 38. Bd4 Rb5 39. e6+ Ke8 40. Kb2 Rd2+ 41. Kc1 Rh2 42. Kb1
Rd5 43. h4 h5 44. Rf1 Rxh4 45. Bb6 Kd8 46. Bd4 Rh2 47. Kc1 Ke8 48. Rd1 Rxf5 49.
Kb1 Rff2 50. e4 Rd2 0-1
[Event "Engine Match Games - Setups"]
[Site "My Burgh"]
[Date "2014.01.16"]
[Round "1.2"]
[White "Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Black "Houdini 4 x64A"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A01"]
[WhiteElo "3038"]
[BlackElo "3083"]
[Annotator "None"]
[PlyCount "104"]
[EventDate "2014.??.??"]
[WhiteTeam "Belgium"]
[BlackTeam "Belgium"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "BEL"]
[BlackTeamCountry "BEL"]
"A01: ♘imzowitsch - Larsen Attack: Modern Variation" <1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3.
e3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. g4 a6 6. Bf1 h6 7. h3 Be7 8. Bg2 d5 9. Nc3 Be6 10. Nge2 d4
11. Ne4 Nxe4 12. Bxe4 Bd5 13. Ng3 Bxe4 14. Nxe4 Qd7 15. Qf3 Nb4 16. O-O-O Nxa2+
17. Kb1 Nb4 18. Qf5 d3 19. c4 Qxf5 20. gxf5 f6 21. Rhg1 Kf7 22. Bc3 Nc6 23. Rg6
b5 24. Rdg1 Rhg8 25. c5 b4 26. Bb2 Na5 27. Ka2 Nb7 28. c6 Nd6 29. Nxd6+ Bxd6
30. e4 Bc5 31. Rf1 Rad8 32. f4 exf4 33. Rxf4 Be3> 34. dxe3 d2 35. Rg1 d1=Q 36.
Rxd1 Rxd1 37. e5 Rb8 38. e6+ Ke8 39. Bd4 Rb5 40. h4 h5 41. Kb2 Rd2+ 42. Kc1 Rh2
43. Kb1 Rd5 44. Rf1 Rxh4 45. Kc2 Ke7 46. Kd3 Rg4 47. Kc4 Rb5 48. Kd3 h4 49. Ba7
Rd5+ 50. Bd4 g6 51. fxg6 Rxg6 52. Kc4 Rh5 0-1
Note that both games have the same move sequence from move 34 through move 37, but by the end of move 44, the position is the same. The rest is just a difference in semantics as to how to finish off White. Position after move 44:
click for larger viewLet the Rook do the dirty dance!! |
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| Jan-16-14 | | DcGentle: <JustWoodshifting>: We will see move 35 as utmost. My guess is end with move 33. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | iatelier: <AylerKupp> If you, please, can tell me in which GUI you can change <from MPV=3 to MPV=5> ? I found Tarrasch having max-4, and in Arena only 1 with chronological/incremental variation improving with time. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | JustWoodshifting: <DcGentle>: You're correct. I think he ran up the white flag with <33.Rxf4>. He'll be suing for peace either before his 34th move or after our 34th. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | DcGentle: <iatelier>: Under Arena, just right-click into the engine window, select "Multi-PV-Mode" and choose the number you want to have, for example 5. (Standard is "off"). |
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| Jan-16-14 | | Tiggler: <DcGentle: <iatelier>: Under Arena, just right-click into the engine window, select "Multi-PV-Mode" and choose the number you want to have, for example 5. (Standard is "off").> Largest number you can chose in my version of arena is 16. Yes, you should use a number as large as that to scope the possibilities if the situation is not tactical. Let it run to at least 20-ply, then stop, reset to a lower pv-number and start again. Do this several times if necessary until you get down to the best 2, 5, 8, or whatever number of moves still seem to be candidates. Don't worry about the processing time you might waste, because the engine will race back up to the ply-number previously reached in no time. It already has those variations in hash. This method overcomes some of the errors caused by too-aggressive pruning at low ply. |
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| Jan-16-14 | | cormier: 33....Be3 34. dxe3 d2 35. Rg1 d1=Q 36. Rxd1 Rxd1: 
click for larger view |
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