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| Apr-13-11 | | andrewjsacks: Geller was Fischer's toughest opponent--a "difficult opponent" for him--and one who knew how to play against Fischer: he steered, when he could, for "irrational" positions, probably the maturing Fischer's only weakness. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | ughaibu: As the matter's come up, let's consider it further: 1) in how many games between these two, were the critical positions irrational (whatever that might mean)? 2) which of the two was responsible for the game having an irrational nature? 3) why didn't Geller steer for an irrational position in 1970? |
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Apr-13-11
 | | LIFE Master AJ: Geller had an extremely aggressive style ... he played to win. So did Fischer. They never "played nice" and both players aimed to win. A compromise (a draw) was almost never possible in such situations. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | bartonlaos: Petar Trifunovic thought that Fischer played Geller all wrong. Fischer decided on sharp opening variations, that needed scope and research. Geller had the best team of experts in Moscow to check his work, whereas Fischer worked alone. Geller also had a natural eye for combinations. So Dr. Petar Trifunovic wrote that Fischer needed instead to take a hard, positional approach, without pretensions for the win in the very opening. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | bartonlaos: Add this line to your Fischer annotations if you like to have them sourced: 20. a3?
<20. Rh5 Nd2+ 21. Rxd2 cxd2 22. Rxh7+ Kxh7 23. Qf5+ Kh6 24. Qh3+ Kg6 25. Qd3+ Kh6, 26. Qh3+...perp>, as suggested by Dragoljub Velimirovic Source: Game of the Month column by Svetozar Gligoric Chess Review Dec 1967, p361. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | bartonlaos: TRIVIA:
1. At the time of this tournament, Skopje was known as the city of ....what? 2. What nickname did the locals give to Fischer?
3. What round did Fischer launch a protest against the tournament organizers, and what were his two demands? |
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| Apr-13-11 | | sevenseaman: I have been thinking its all important for Fischer to stop the advance of Black's 'b' pawn. Will a3 at some stage be enough? Or White must deal with Black's Q and DSB combo by playing 14. Qe3 to create his own. It invites 14...Ng4 So I had no time for h3. Complex! < bartonlaos: Add this line to your Fischer annotations if you like to have them sourced:20. a3?
<20. Rh5 Nd2+ 21. Rxd2 cxd2 22. Rxh7+ Kxh7 23. Qf5+ Kh6 24. Qh3+ Kg6 25. Qd3+ Kh6, 26. Qh3+...perp>, as suggested by Dragoljub Velimirovic> Interesting; could work. But in view of Geller's indisputable attacking instincts it will remain a conjecture. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | DWINS: <LIFE Master AJ: My analysis indicates that White would be very lucky - even to draw.> I totally disagree. As a matter of fact, Fischer's suggestion of
20. Qf4 comes very close to winning. Black has to make 13 consecutive forced moves to hold the position, and at the end his position is still worse. 20. Qf4 cxb2 (forced)
21. Rh5 Nf6 (forced)
22. Rh6 Rxf7 (forced)
23. Bxf7 Be4 (forced)
24. Bb3 d5 (forced)
25. Bxf6 Bxc2+ (forced)
26. Bxc2 Qxf4 (forced)
27. Rxh7+ Kg8 (forced)
28. Rxg7+ Kh8 (forced)
29. Rh7+ Kg8 (forced)
30. Rh8+ Kf7 (forced)
31. Rxd8 Ba3 (forced)
32. Bxb2 Bxb2 (forced)
33. g3 Qb4
34. R8xd5 Bf6+
35. Bb3
At this point, Houdini 1.5a rates White's position as better by 0.67. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | ughaibu: Why is 20....cxb2 forced? |
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| Apr-13-11 | | ughaibu: If it's forced, then there must be a reason why it's forced, what is that reason? |
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| Apr-13-11 | | DWINS: <ughaibu>, OK. 20...cxb2 prevents White from playing 21.a3 which wins, because after Black moves his Queen, White plays 22.Qh6. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | ughaibu: I see. Thanks. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | DWINS: <ughaibu>, You're welcome. I was stunned while watching Houdini 1.5a analyze the position. Move after move for Black it came up with only one viable move. Its second best move was always way worse. I'm not sure I've seen anything quite like it. |
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Apr-13-11
| | LIFE Master AJ: <dw> I have no idea what engine you are using, but just about all the engines I tried showed Black to be better ... if not flat-out winning. I am not going to bother to check your analysis ... I will leave that to someone else. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | Mozart72: Fischer had a 68.75% win against Geller's 68.75% win, so that means this game could have been a draw. |
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Apr-13-11
| | LIFE Master AJ: [Fischer gave 20.Qf4, as winning, however, I could not find a forced win with any chess engine. For example: 20.Qf4 cxb2 21.Rd3, ***
I did my own analysis (over two days) with Houdini ... out of sheer curiosity more than anything else ... this is what I came up with: <(21.Rh5 Nc3+
<(Maybe less good was: 21...Nf6!? 22.Rh6 Rxf7 23.Bxf7 Be4 24.Bb3 d5 25.Bxf6 Bxc2+ 26.Bxc2 Qxf4 27.Rxh7+ Kg8 28.Rxg7+ Kh8 29.Rh7+ Kg8 30.Rh8+ Kf7 31.Rxd8 Ba3 32.Bxb2 Bxb2 33.g3 Qb4 34.Bb3, with maybe a small edge to White.)> 22.Kxb2 Nxd1+ 23.Kc1 Qxd4 24.Qxd4 d5 25.c3 Rxf7 26.Bc2 Nxc3 27.Qxc3 Rd6 28.Bxh7 Bg5+ 29.Rxg5 Kxh7 30.Qd3+ Kg8 31.Rh5, again with an edge to White ... but still NO forced win!!!> ***
21...Qe1+ 22.Kxb2 Qh4µ] . |
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| Apr-13-11 | | bartonlaos: <AJ> NOT 30.Qd3+
<30.Qh3+ Rh6 31.Rh5 Rf1+ 32.Kd2 Rf6 33.Qd3+ +2.44 Houd1.5> |
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| Apr-13-11 | | TheFocus: <LIFE Master AJ>< I have redone dozens of web pages the past few days. Fischer vs Geller, 1967
The link on the page carries you to two pages that have been completely "re-fitted" and corrected. The TEXT page has a NEW analysis ... but it is BELOW the original analysis! The bottom line? I could find NO forced win for White after Fischer's 20.Qf4!! (I used Fritz 12, Rybka 3, Houdini and many other engines.) So - at least this one time - Fischer's assessment of this game was incorrect. If you have time, take a look and tell me what you think.> <Apr-12-11
Premium Chessgames Member LIFE Master AJ: http://www.lifemasteraj.com/old_af-...http://www.lifemasteraj.com/old_af-...
The games have been redone. (The NEW analysis is BELOW the old analysis ... on the TEXT page ... the second of my two links.) A VERY long story ... made short? I could find NO forced win after 20.Qf4, despite days of analysis with engines like Fritz 12, Rybka 3 and Houdini.> Quite frankly, I am not convinced. Could it be that you offered NO refutation at all to Fischer's or Geller's notes? I clicked on the page that <AJ> mentions and did not find one bit of analysis to back up his claim. I expected to see a few lines of analysis. None, nada, zip. You did not even offer either Fischer's or Geller's notes. Are we to go on your say-so? Not one note?
I will believe them.
<20. a3?>
<Fischer's notes>
Losing! A couple of hours after the game it occurred to me that White has a problem-like win after 20. Qf4!! (with the threat of Rh5). Black has no adequate defense: (a) 20...d5 21. Qe5 Nf6 22. Rxf6 Bxf6 23. Qxf6!; (b) 20...Nd2+ 21. Rxd2 cxd2 22. c3!! Qxb3 23. Bxg7+! Kxg7 26. Qg4+ Kh8 25. Qd4+ and mates; (c) cxb2 21. Rh5! (threatening Bxg7+) Nc3+ (if 21...Bf6 22. Qf5 h6 23. Rxh6+! gxh6 24. Qg6!! forces mate) 22. Kxb2 Nxd1+ (or 22...Rxf7 23. Qxf7 Nxd1+ 24. Kb1!! Qxd4 25. Rxh7+!! Kxh7 26. Qh5 mate) 23. Kc1 Rxf7 (forced) 24. Bxf7! (24. Qxf7?? Bg5+) and Black has no satisfactory answer to the threat of 25. Rxh7+ Kxh7 26. Qf5+ and mates. If 24...Bd7 25. Bxg7+ wins Black's Queen. <Geller's notes>
This loses in paradoxical fashion. As Fischer writes, a couple of hours after the game he found the problem-like win 20. Qf4!!, with the threat of 21. Rh5. Black has no way of equalizing, for example: 20...cxb2 21. Rh5!, and now (a) 21...Bf6 22. Qf5 h6 23. Rxh6!! gxh6 24. Qg6, with inevitable mate; (b) 21...Nf6 22. Rh6!, when Black can avoid the thematic Rxf6 only by going into a hopeless ending: 22...d5 23. Rxf6 Rd6 24. Rxd6 Qxd6 25. Qxd6 Bxd6 26. Rf1, and 26...Bxh2 fails to 27. Bc5, while the threat of 27. Rf6! is maintained (Murey); (c) 21...Nc3+ 22. Kxb2 Nxd1+ (22...Rxf7 23. Qxf7 Nxd1+ 24. Kb1!! Qxd4 25. Rxh7+! Kxh7 26. Qh5 mate) 23. Kc1 Rxf7 24. Bxf7!, with the decisive threat of 25. Rxh7+ Kxh7 26. Qf5+. White also wins after 20...Nd2+ (his task is very simple after 20...d5 21. Qe5 Nf6 22. Rxf6 Bxf6 23. Qxf6!) 21. Rxd2 cxd2 23. c3!!, and: (a) 22...Qb7 (or 22...Qxb3), and Black succumbs to the mating combination 23. Bxg7+! Kxg7 24. Qg4+ Kh8 25. Qd4+; (b) 22...Qc5 (best, although it does not get Black out of his difficulties) 23. Kc2! Bd7 (23...Qe5!? 24. Rxe5 dxe5 25. Qxe5 Bf6, with the hope of 26. Qxf6? d1(Q)+!, leads to a hopeless position after the correct 26. Qc5 Bxd4 27. cxd4 Rc8 28. Kxd2 Ba4 29. Qe7 Bxb3 30. axb3 Rcd8 31. Ke3) 24. Bxc5 Bxf5+ 25. Qxf5 dxc5 26. Kd1 Rd6 27. Qe5 Rd7 28. Qe6 Rb7 29. Bc2, and against 30. Qf5 There is no satisfactory defense. This is the truth, established after many years of painstaking analysis. The number of moves with two exclamation marks demanded of White shows how difficult it was to find all this during the restricted time of one game. A calculation of all the variations was impossible, and intuition in sharp situations was not Fischer's strongest weapon. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | DWINS: <LMAJ: (Maybe less good was: 21...Nf6!? 22.Rh6 Rxf7 23.Bxf7 Be4 24.Bb3 d5 25.Bxf6 Bxc2+ 26.Bxc2 Qxf4 27.Rxh7+ Kg8 28.Rxg7+ Kh8 29.Rh7+ Kg8 30.Rh8+ Kf7 31.Rxd8 Ba3 32.Bxb2 Bxb2 33.g3 Qb4 34.Bb3, with maybe a small edge to White.)> That's the line that I give and you agree that it gives White an advantage, but that is only a sub-variation for you. Instead you give the lemon 21. Rd3? as your main line and say that White would be lucky to draw. I don't understand this at all. The truly remarkable thing that you don't seem to give any notice to is how precarious Black's position is. He must make 13 consecutive forced moves just to hold the balance. He is really walking a tightrope. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | TheFocus: After I saw <Apple Jack’s> suggestion that he could find no forced win, (maybe there isn’t one, but he didn’t seem convincing enough), I conducted the following interview: <TheFocus>: <AJ>, I notice that you say there is no forced win after 20. Qf4!!, yet you give us no variations in support. Why is that? <AJ>: Quite frankly, none of you mere mortals would be able to understand the analysis. I’m afraid you will just have to trust me on this. I DO happen to be <LIFEMaster AJ Goldsby>, after all. Did I mention that I was a <Life Master>? In fact, I am planning to publish a new book that will bust the analysis of EVERY game in Fischer’s <My 60 Memorable Games>. I am surprised that such a weak player as the Boy from Brooklyn even became world champion. So many of his games are nothing more than error-laden bad examples of chess, unlike my perfect games; the games of a true <Life Master>? <TheFocus>: What about the rumor that Vishy Anand is seeking your help in his next WC match? <AJ>: I don’t want to confirm or deny that at present, but I will say that I have been approached by certain parties from Mumbai that suggested I begin getting familiar with Indian food. The only thing really set in stone at this time is my <Life Master> title. <TheFocus>: What do you think you could bring to Team Anand? <AJ>: Expert computer analysis, a warrior’s heart, an ego as big as Georgia, Alabama and Florida combined, and a <Life Master> title. Vishy, or as I call him, Big V, respects these things, especially my <Life Master> title. <TheFocus>: Is it true that you were recently invited to the upcoming US Championship as a participant? <AJ>: Yes. I didn’t qualify in the usual way. I was given a sponsor’s exemption based on my contributions to chess, my award winning web-pages, and my <Life Master’s > title. I accepted because I thought that a no-good little cheater, who I will refer to only as <Naka>, was going to also be participating. I am convinced that he withdrew or declined because he would have to meet me face to face at the board without the aid of his computer, and this he was unable to face up to. He is probably hiding out in Europe as we speak. Once he withdrew, I knew winning would be a hollow victory, so I withdrew so my buddy Yaz Seirawan would have a better chance to take the title. <TheFocus>: Well, I am sure that your many fans from <CheessGames.com> are going to be disappointed with your absence from the US Championship. I think many of them were looking forward to seeing you defeat <Naka> in a grand <Life Master> way. What then will be your next tournament? <AJ>: Well, in a few weeks, I am traveling to Gaffney, Alabama to play in the Gaffney Open / Hog Calling Contest / County Fair. In the chess tournament, I will of course finish with my usual 5-0. There will probably be no one rated above 1400 there, but it’s nice to give the other participants to match wits with a <Life Master>, which I am. And I might add that an Alabama 1400 would be the same as an Expert in New York, Chicago or Los Angeles, no doubt. I also have high hopes of getting my USCF rating up to 2225 this year. <TheFocus>: Thank you, <AJ Goldsby>. <AJ>; No, that is <LIFEMaster AJ Goldsby>! <TheFocus>: I stand corrected. Good luck in Gaffney. (Disclaimer: this is not a real interview, but a real one would probably have the same answers.) |
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| Apr-13-11 | | DWINS: <LMAJ>, Regarding the 21. Rh5 Nc3+ line, <bartonlaos> is correct that 30. Qh3+ is the correct move. My analysis differs slightly from his: 31...Rxh5 32. Qxh5+ Kg8 (2.27 according to Houdini 1.5a) |
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Apr-13-11
| | LIFE Master AJ: <TheFocus> I thought you were leaving?! I guess you decided to stick around ... |
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Apr-13-11
| | LIFE Master AJ: <all> If you think you can do a better job on a web page - go for it! If its really outstanding - and sticks to just the game - I will gladly post a link to it. No one - to the best of my knowledge - ever founbd anything near a forced win for White, even after 20.Qf4. |
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| Apr-13-11 | | TheFocus: <LIFE Master AJ> <TheFocus> <I thought you were leaving?! I guess you decided to stick around ...> Yeah. I tried to get in another chess-site, but they slammed the door in my face, so I came back here. Now when did you take me off Ignore? Hmmm...
Besides, I am really nice guy. Don't worry, I'll sell you a copy of my Fischer book. You will love it. |
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Apr-13-11
| | LIFE Master AJ: <TheFocus>
<<Besides, I am really nice guy. Don't worry, I'll sell you a copy of my Fischer book.>> You are not off ignore - I log out occaisionally to read a page ... mainly so I don't miss an important chess idea or piece of analysis. I doubt I would be interested in anything you wrote ... IF you ever actually get the book published, then we can talk more ... |
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