< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 48 OF 914 ·
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May-07-09
 | | Phony Benoni: We have got to do something about the paparazzi. |
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May-11-09
 | | Phony Benoni: Baseball players have it easy today.
On May 1, 1920, the Brooklyn Robins played at Boston. Brooklyn scored a run in the 5th to take the lead. The Braves tied it up in the botom of the sixth--and the game continued a 1-1 tie until it was called due to darkness after 26 innings. That was on Saturday. Apparently, Sunday baseball was banned in Boston at that time, as Brooklyn travelled down to Philadelphia for a game with the Phillies. They lost 4-3, in 13 innings. On Monday the 3rd, Brooklyn was back in Boston. Again, they scored a run in the 5th inning to take a lead, and again the Braves tied it in the bootom of the 6th. And, again, the score stuck there--until Boston finally scored a run in the bottom of the 19th to win 2-1. That makes three games totalling 58 innings for Brooklyn without a win. But shed no tears. They eventually won the pennant. Eventually. |
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May-12-09
 | | playground player: <Phony Benoni> One more aspect of that 26-inning game: the starting pitchers, Oeschger and Cadore, both went the distance! So much for "quality starts" in 1920! |
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May-12-09
 | | Phony Benoni: <playground player> Yes, having 4 1/2 quality starts in one game sort of invalidates the concept! Maybe I'm crazy, but I enjoy going through the box scores available at http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/inde.... They've now got every game from the 1920s up, and even without play-by-play it's fascinating. For instance, in September, 1928 the Boston Braves played nine consectuive double headers. Thankfully, they did have a couple of days off in that stretch. http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1928... |
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May-12-09 | | Jim Bartle: How would those pitchers score according to Bill James' "game score" rating? He gives points for each out and strikeout, deducts points for runs, hits and walks. Now that I think about it, he may have written they're the highest ever. |
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May-12-09
 | | Phony Benoni: Baseball is a game just made for statistics; still, they must all be taken with a grain of salt. The strategy of the game and the conditions under which it is played simply vary too much to justly compare a player from 1909 with one from 2009. This also applies to the "modern" brand of stats derived by Bill James and his friends. I don't dispute that they have some meaning, but a 1-0 oomplete game pitched today is a much greater achieverment than a game with identical statistics would have been in 1920. |
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May-12-09 | | Jim Bartle: Absolutely. As I understand it, in the dead ball era (through 1919), pitchers often didn't even throw their hardest stuff until they got in trouble, since the chances of a home run were minimal. So it was natural they could last longer. I would say, though, that Bill James has done everything possible to take the changing conditions of baseball into account. I think he once said that if you didn't, you'd conclude that 80% of the greatest hitters of all time played from 1925 to 1940 and most of the great pitchers played from 1900 to 1915. |
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May-12-09
 | | Phony Benoni: I can believe that dead-ball pitchers didn't bear down all the time. I remember reading about Christy Mathewson pitching a 14-hit nine-inning shutout once. I'll have to admit that Bill James loses me when he starts throwing the algebraic formulae around, but the guy knows his stuff about baseball eras. For instance, there are several 300-game winners from the 1900-1915 era (Young, Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, and Plank come to mind), but the only one I can think of from 1925-1940 was Lefty Grove. That span was a pitcher's graveyard; the baseball must have been on steroids. For instance, in 1930, the National League batted .303. Not one team. The entire dang league! Speaking of pitcher's graveyards, Dontrelle Willis is going to give it another shot tomorrow night. |
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May-12-09 | | Jim Bartle: I sort of gloss over the math in Bill James as well. But the results he gets are usually revealing. One thing I learned from James is that after Ray Chapman was killed by a pitch in 1920, a pitch he most likely lost sight of, the umpires began putting new balls in play much more often. This meant the pitches were more visible and easier to hit. |
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May-13-09
 | | playground player: <Phony Benoni> Given the conditions of baseball today, I just wish I could trade Derek Jeter to the 1959 SF Giants at the start of their season. He deserves a better era to play in. |
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May-13-09 | | Jim Bartle: Please keep trying, pp--Jeter would be a big improvement over Daryl Spencer and Eddie Bressoud. However you would also be sending Jeter to play his career (starting in 1960) in Candlestick Park, one of the worst hitting parks in baseball. |
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May-13-09
 | | Phony Benoni: Not to mention the winds at Candlestick. Remember Stu Miller getting blown off the mound? <Jim Bartle> That's an interesting point about new baseballs in 1920. I had only heard the traditional explanation that the ball was livened up to help Babe Ruth and other sluggers attract fans after the 1919 Black Sox. |
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May-13-09 | | Jim Bartle: Do I remember?? I was there!
"Stu Miller throws, Maury bunts.
Cepeda runs to field the ball and Hiller covers first,
Haller runs to back up Hiller,
Hiller crashes into Miller,
Miller falls, drops the ball, Conlan calls "Safe!" " |
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May-13-09
 | | Phony Benoni: Actually, I was thinking of the 1961 All-Star game at Candlestick. Check the ninth inning for the American League: http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/... Miller was called for a balk when he was blown off the mound during his pitching motion. |
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May-13-09 | | Jim Bartle: Yes, I went to that game. The verse was just fun with Stu Miller and the other Giants' names. The day started out so great, glorious sun, no wind. But with all the substitutions an All-Star game takes a lot of time, and as it dragged on until the late afternoon the wind really whipped up, with hot dog wrappers and beer cups blowing across the field. |
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May-13-09
 | | Phony Benoni: Whoops, I misunderstood you there. Never been to Candlestick, though I did spend one blustery and chilly August day in San Francisco hitting the usual tourist traps.. I did go to one game at Oakland Alameda County Stadium in 1995, just before the beginning the the US Open in Concord. Seattle beat Oakland, 15-8, The game took nearly four hours, and we sat in the unshielded center-field bleachers the whole time, wearing shorts. This was not a good idea for somebody from Michigan.
The resulting sunburn was bad enough that I probably should have gone to a hospital, but didn't. After all, I couldn't afford to miss any of the tournament! My only highlight was beating a Master in round 8, probably because my face was peeling so badly that he must have been grossed out. |
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May-13-09 | | Jim Bartle: I’m having trouble keeping up with the vocabulary of team sports these days. Pitchers no longer have good control, they have “command.” Wide receivers no longer get open, they “create separation.” Defenders in basketball are no longer tall, they’re “long.” But the offensive term “skill position” somehow lives on in football. What does that say about the other sixteen players on the field? |
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May-14-09
 | | WannaBe: The other sixteen players on the field are too busy pounding their chest with one fist, and tuggin' their shirts with the other. |
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May-14-09
 | | Phony Benoni: Some of the new lingo seems to be a desire to sound more scientific or precise. (The Bill James factor?) But I do understand "long" in basketball. A player like Tayshaun Prince of the Pistorns may not be as tall as some of the players he guards, but his unusually long arms make him seem taller. The one that bugs me is a different type: this tendency to rename the "foul pole" in baseball the "fair pole". Yes, I understand the logic. I might even agree with it. But if you're going to use it, be consisent and call that chalk line on the field the "fair line", not the "foul line". |
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May-14-09 | | Jim Bartle: The term "lingo" reminds of one of the great baseball names of all time, Van Lingle Mungo. That was the title of a nice song by Dave Frishberg. Complete lyrics: Heeney Majeski
Johnny Gee
Eddie Joost
Johnny Pesky
Thornton Lee
Danny Gardella
Van Lingle Mungo
Whitey Kurowski
Max Lanier
Eddie Waitkus and
Johnny Vander Meer
Bob Estalella
Van Lingle Mungo
Augie Bergamo
Sigmund Jakucki
Big Johnny Mize and
Barney McCosky
Hal Trosky
Augie Galan and
Pinky May
Stan Hack and
Frenchy Bordagaray
Phil Cavarretta
George McQuinn
Howard Pollet and
Early Wynn
Roy Campanella
Van Lingle Mungo
Augie Bergamo
Sigmund Jakucki
Big Johnny Mize and
Barney McCosky
Hal Trosky
John Antonelli
Ferris Fain
Frankie Crosetti
Johnny Sain
Harry Brecheen and
Lou Boudreau
Frankie Gustine and
Claude Passeau
Eddie Basinski
Ernie Lombardi
Huey Mulcahy
Van Lingle
Van Lingle Mungo |
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May-14-09
 | | playground player: <Jim Bartle> It wasn't until he went to play with the Red Sox that anybody knew Eddie Bressoud could hit--so I concede your point about Jeter playing at Candlestick. After Toothpick Sam Jones, Stu Miller was my favorite pitcher. What'd they have to go and trade him to the Orioles for? (It still rankles.) And then they traded Orlando Cepeda to the Cardinals for Ray Sadecki, and the long, dark night closed in. Ah, well--baseball now seems like nothing more than a joint effort by a Baseball Industry to mine money from the public. Ou sont las nieges d'antan? |
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May-14-09
 | | Phony Benoni: Oh, yes. That was the perfect baseball song, with a tune that defined nostalgia. |
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May-14-09
 | | Phony Benoni: And, just to shift the topic yet again, we were talking before about four decade players. But there's another remarkable milestone on the horizon. <Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, >and< Tony LaRussa> all have the opportunity to become five-decade managers next year (and why wouldn't they still be around?). After a little searching, I can find only three other five-decade managers. Two will probably spring to mind immediately, but the third might take some thought. |
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May-14-09 | | Jim Bartle: Van Lingle Mungo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Gt... Bressoud played pretty well for the Giants when he got the chance. Andre Rodgers, greatest player ever from the Bahamas, could hit but was a butcher in the field. I liked Sam Jones for the Giants; he was extremely popular in SF. Stu Miller was a rarity, a soft-throwing closer. The Cepeda trade was sad, but he hadn't played at all in 65, was still injured and not hitting in 66, and McCovey had established himself as a big-time slugger at first base. Trading Cepeda was fine, but they needed to get more than just Sadecki. Problem was, Sadecki had shut down the Giants a few weeks earlier, so they thought he was great, and he wasn't. Actually he was good a couple of years later, but terrible at first. |
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May-14-09 | | Jim Bartle: Managers: Connie Mack, Casey Stengel, and...??
By the way, LaRussa has to have the strangest World Series record ever. He's managed in five, but only 22 games (9-13)! Forget a seventh game, no team of his has ever played a sixth game. |
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