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| Sep-29-06 | | NateDawg: <ongyj:<Maybe when I'm black I'll consider using it to bore my opponent to death with the standard non-risk taking lines>> Are you saying the Budapest Gambit Accepted is BORING?! This is easily one of the most exciting defenses to the Queen's Gambit, and very few lines could be called "boring". For example: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 ♘g4 4.♕d4?! d6 5.exd6 ♗xd6. This line is similar to the From Gambit and can lead to very exciting play. Even the standard main lines with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 ♘g4 4.♗f4 ♘c6 5.♘f3 ♗b4+ 6.♘c3 ♕e7 7.♕d5 ♗xc3+ 8.bxc3 f6 9.exf6 ♘xf6 are among the most exciting games starting with 1.d4 that you will see. If you want a non-risk line with which to bore your opponent, then I would suggest the Queen's Gambit Declined, Orthodox Defense (D60). There is risk and excitement in all lines of the Budapest Accepted, and that's what makes it so fun to play (especially in blitz games)! |
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| Sep-29-06 | | ongyj: Dear <NateDawg> No I'm not saying Budapest defence is boring. I'm saying that Black chooses the nature of the opening game it wants to and personally I'll choose a way to bore the game for White. Maybe bore sounds a little negative. I'll replace it with "completely shut off White". I'm not very sure of 4.Qd4 yet. If I'm not betrayed by memory there's this very interesting trap. 4.Qd4 d6 5.exd6 Bxd6 6.Qxg7? Be5!, 0-1. Even if White does not take the 'gift' pawn, the d4 Queen is more of a liability than an asset, being somewhat misplaced.) And yes, the Rubinstein line is a bore in my opinion. My arguement is that Black can play an exciting game as you mentioned or attempt to completely shut off White's progress. Instead of 8...f6(Which is not a bad move for Black at all), Black can attempt a perpetual with 8...Qa3 and to and fro ...Qe7 if White chooses to hold the unholdable e5 pawn. At this point of time my personal evaluation is that White gained nothing with any kind of continuations from the Budapest defence. And no, QGD, Orthodox Defence is not risk free to me. Black often has to worry about the timely development of the light-squared Bishop. Budapest is, because it is 'unbreakable', at least at this point of time, LOL :) |
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| Sep-30-06 | | ongyj: Following <Hamworld>'s line, 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5 Qa3 If 9.Rc1 then play 9...f6. Personally I feel it is even better than 8...f6, you got to decide for yourself. The think is, Black chooses what he wants, not White! Okay so I didn't mention these stuff were 'exciting' because my judgement is simply that White should never try to be funny with Qd4 in the opening stages of Budapest Defence. In my opinion Qd4 in either lines does nothing other than generate losing chances for White. I await any corrections thanks. |
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| Sep-30-06 | | jahhaj: <ongyj> There is no overwhelming line as White of course, but 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bc4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 (a3 is good too) Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 gives White a comfortable edge and a risk free game. I score many more wins than draws in this line and no loses I can recall. Also Black finds it hard to avoid (4...g5 is the only real choice), so what's to be afraid of in the Budapest? |
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| Oct-01-06 | | ongyj: Dear <jahhaj> I assume 4.Bc4 is an error. It must have been 4.Bf4. The point is after the massive lots of exchanges, how does White progress? What can possibly be White's ideas to gain or sustain any advantage. The only visible advantage could be White's double Bishops, but in this case I actually don't favour it much at all. Also, both players' pawn formations are rather intact. If you would could you please post a few games for me to go through, because I simply love Black's solidity here. Thank you. |
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| Oct-01-06 | | jahhaj: <ongyj> Right 4.Bf4. White's advantage is partly in the two bishops (given that Black is more or less forced to swap his black squared bishop for White's knight) but also White is well setup to break up Black's pawns by advancing his queen side pawns. This is the main idea. I'll have a look for some games. |
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| Oct-01-06 | | jahhaj: <ongyj> Well you can research games with the opening explorer, here's a selection http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... but I hope you don't mind me posting a few of my own games. These are all blitz games so don't look for any great depth, but hopefully they illustrate the possibilites White has. [Event "Rated game, 10m + 2s"]
[Site "Main Playing Hall"]
[Date "2006.04.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Jahhaj"]
[Black "saketh123"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A52"]
[WhiteElo "1857"]
[BlackElo "1585"]
[Annotator "Harrison,John"]
[PlyCount "45"]
[EventDate "2006.09.30"]
[TimeControl "600+2"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7
7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 Bd6 10. Ne4 Bb4+ 11. Nd2 Bd6 12. O-O Ng6
13. Bxd6 Qxd6 14. Qc2 Qf6 15. Rfd1 d6 16. Bf3 Ne5 17. Be4 Ng4 18. Nf3
Ne5 19. c5 Nxf3+ 20. Bxf3 dxc5 21. Qxc5 Qe7 22. Bc6+ Kf8 23. Rd8# 1-0 [Event "Rated game, 10m + 2s"]
[Site "Main Playing Hall"]
[Date "2006.05.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Jahhaj"]
[Black "Saketh_chess_kak"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A52"]
[WhiteElo "1864"]
[BlackElo "1720"]
[Annotator "Harrison,John"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2006.09.30"]
[TimeControl "600+2"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3
Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 d6 10. O-O Ng6 11. Bg3 Bxd2 12. Qxd2 b6 13. Bf3
Rb8 14. b4 Bb7 15. Bxb7 Rxb7 16. Qd5 Rb8 17. c5 bxc5 18. bxc5 dxc5 19. Rfc1
O-O 20. Qxc5 Qf6 21. Qxc7 Rbc8 22. Qxa7 Rxc1+ 23. Rxc1 Qb2 24. Rf1 h6 25. a4
Rc8 26. a5 Rc1 27. Qa6 Rxf1+ 28. Qxf1 Qa3 29. a6 Ne7 30. h3 Nc6 31. Qb5
Qc1+ 32. Kh2 Qc2 33. Qb7 Qc5 34. Qc8+ Kh7 35. a7 Nxa7 36. Qxc5 1-0 [Event "Rated game, 10m + 2s"]
[Site "Main Playing Hall"]
[Date "2006.09.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Jahhaj"]
[Black "Adamow"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A52"]
[WhiteElo "1926"]
[BlackElo "1798"]
[Annotator "Harrison,John"]
[PlyCount "51"]
[EventDate "2006.09.30"]
[TimeControl "600+2"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3
Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 O-O 10. O-O Bxd2 11. Qxd2 d6 12. Rfd1 b6 13. b4
a5 14. c5 dxc5 15. bxc5 Bf5 16. cxb6 cxb6 17. Qd4 Nd7 18. Bd6 Qg5 19. Bxf8
Nxf8 20. Qxb6 h5 21. Qc7 h4 22. Qf4 Qg6 23. Qxh4 Ne6 24. Bf3 Rc8 25. e4
Nd4 26. Rxd4 1-0
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| Oct-13-06 | | NateDawg: <jahhaj> I don't see how you can say White gets a considerable advantage in the Budapest Gambit. In the line you site, which is probably the best for White, the position is very even. In fact, Crafty 19.19 rates the position after 1.d4 ♘f6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 ♘g4 4.♗f4 ♘c6 5.♘f3 ♗b4+ 6.♘bd2 ♕e7 7.e3 ♘gxe5 8.♘xe5 ♘xe5 9.♗e2 O-O 10.0-0 as = (0.06), while Fritz 9 gives the position = (0.24).
click for larger viewYou say that White's advantage lies in his two bishops, but both sides still have the bishop pair. And while Black often trades his b4 bishop for White's knight, he is by no means obligated to do so. In fact, sometimes the knight is more valuable than a bishop. For example, Black often puts pawns on d6 and b6. In that case, a White knight on d4 would be very powerful. Also, the Black knight on e5 is at least as good as White's bishops. So, the bishop pair (which both sides currently have) may not be an advantage after all. You also say White has an advantage due to his possibility of advancing his queenside pawns. However, Black too can advance his queenside pawns, and has a serious option in ...a5. Finally, let's go over the games that you posted. In the first one, 9...♗d6 is a poor move, putting the bishop on an inferior square and preventing ...d6. In the second game, 10...♘g6 and 12...b6 are inaccuracies, and after move 14, White has a definite advantage, which Fritz gives as  (0.84). Finally, in the last game, Black waits too long to play ...a5 and has already weakened his queenside. |
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| Oct-13-06 | | NateDawg: <jahhaj> A good line for Black is 1.d4 ♘f6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 ♘g4 4.♗f4 ♘c6 5.♘f3 ♗b4+ 6.♘bd2 ♕e7 7.e3 ♘gxe5 8.♘xe5 ♘xe5 9.♗e2 O-O 10.0-0 a5!? 11.a3 ♗xd2 12.♕xd2 d6 13.♖ac1 b6. I am curious as to how you would say White has an advantage in this position.
click for larger viewSo, while you are right that, for the prepared player, there is not much "to be afraid of" in the Budapest Gambit, it is still a sound opening which gives good chances for both sides. |
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| Oct-16-06 | | ongyj: <NateDawg> In fact I haven't came across this line before:( Well, I suppose in that position White can try to make some disturbance with either b4 or Qd5 and try to get an open a file or something. But nothing concrete, just some abstract ideas in my mind:) |
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| Oct-18-06 | | jahhaj: <NateDawg> I think you misread my post, comfortable edge was what I said, not considerable advantage. That the main thing that strikes me about this line. White's game is comfortable, he has reasonable winning chances, a clear plan, and no losing chances I can see. I wouldn't look to a computer evaluation to judge an opening. I score very heavily against the Budapest, that's what I base my evaluation on. I know an early 10...a5 is a current favourite for Black. If that line holds up then White can switch to the older 7.a3 which is also good. In your position the usual queen side advance is called for I think, 14.b4. Looks OK to me. |
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| Oct-18-06 | | jahhaj: <NateDawg> I really don't see the Ne5 as powerful. Inn fact I think it's one of Black's problems. If White gets a pawn to c5 (not hard to do) then Black sometimes cannot take dxc5 because the d6 pawn is needed to defend the knight. This can mean the d6 pawn is weak after White plays cxd6. Black can avoid this by playing Ng6 but that puts the knight rather out of play. I don't see that it has any other good squares. |
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| Oct-18-06 | | siggemannen: just play 1.d4 2.nf3 3.c4 and no budapest ever |
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| Oct-18-06 | | RookFile: Is life that easy? When you play 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3, black can play either 2...c5, and you can't play the best lines in the Benoni involving f4, or 2....b6, which leads to super-solid lines in the Queen's Indian that are very difficult to beat. |
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| Oct-20-06 | | ongyj: Haha <RookFile> If someone plays 2...c5 against me I'll simply bore him to death with 3.e3 :) Yeah life is easy after all, so long as you are willing to make it so! Also, in the above lone after 11.a3 can't Black choose to keep the Bishop with 11...Bc5 ? Thanks for answering these questions. |
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| Oct-18-07 | | Harvestman: As a demonstration of how NOT to play the Budapest Gambit, I played the following atrocity as black over the board in a local league match last night, with plenty of time on my clock (i.e. not a rapidplay or anything) 1.d4 Ng6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bb4+ (mistake number 1) 5.Nc3 Bxc3+ (No. 2) 6.bxc3 Nc6 7.Bg5 (Oh dear) f6 8.exf6 Nxf6 9.e3 Qe7 (0-0) 10.Qc2 d6 (possibly Ne5 is better) 11.Bd3 g6? 12.Bxg6 1-0 My team captain was not impressed. |
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| Aug-25-08 | | DarthStapler: Awesome opening |
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| Aug-29-08 | | therangeravl: The Alekhine Variation is surely the most unusual and therefore most unpleasant variation for black. I think I read somewhere that 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.e4 Nxe5 5.f4 Nec6 6.a3!? a5 7.Be3 Na6 8.Bd3 Bc5 is about equal, but what about the direct 6.Be3 ? Could Black simply develop the same way or should he delay a5? |
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| Aug-29-08 | | niemzo: After 6.Be3, black can play Bb4+ and keep the option of a5 for a later move. White doesn't waste a tempo with a3 so black shouldn't delay his own development.For example, after 7.Nc3 Bxc3
black has damaged white's pawn structure and has even the option of long castling after fianchettoing the bishop. |
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| Aug-29-08 | | whiteshark: <Harvestman> After 11...Bg4 
click for larger view
I think there is still plenty of play in it. I wouldn't call it 'sufficient compensation', though. :D |
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| Apr-13-09 | | Nasgard: Whats wrong with 4.Qd4? I'm sure white must fall into a trap somewhere if he plays it, because at first glance it seems to hold everything down. |
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| Apr-13-09 | | blacksburg: <Nasgard> hmmm...good question. 4...d6 would seem to be the move.
5.exd6 Bxd6 and no immediate trap, but black has a major lead in development. for example
M Foudzi-Ahmad vs C Rogers, 2001
Beliavsky vs Epishin, 1991
M Foudzi-Ahmad vs H Shafruddin, 2001
Kobe vs G Georges, 1985
P Wharton vs Ali Abdoullah Elmejbi, 1980
V Kovalenko vs Beimanov, 1990
J Laszlo vs L Alfoldy, 1933
here's the only game that white has won in this line, according to the database. V Eryomenko vs A Zakharchenko, 2001 |
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| Apr-13-09 | | blacksburg: upon closer inspection, this line seems to be like the Two Knights Defense (C55) with 4.Ng5 - it's probably very good for black, but you had better know your tactics before going in to it. |
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| Apr-13-09 | | Nasgard: <blacksburg> Yeah looking at those games, while 4…d6 does make the gambit permanent, black's lead in development is more than adequate compensation – and it's obviously very easy to blunder, as M Foudzi-Ahmad vs C Rogers, 2001 testifies to. I’m just studying up on the Budapest because a 10 year old kid surprised me with it, and beat me in a match last weekend. I tried 4.e4 Alekhine’s variation, but fell into a really embarrassing trap. I’ve being going over it all day on Fritz and I believe white’s best try is probably 4.Bf4 – then 4…Nc6 5.Nf3 and if 5…Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 – but obviously white has to be careful there if black plays 6…Qe7 with very nasty surprises in mind. |
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| Apr-13-09 | | chessman95: <Nasgard: Whats wrong with 4.Qd4? I'm sure white must fall into a trap somewhere if he plays it, because at first glance it seems to hold everything down.> Funny reputation that too-good-to-be-true moves have built up over these past few trap-obsessed decades... |
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