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| Mar-30-13 | | Dragi: It is really only move in the position that saves Aronian in this position ... and GM must read 15 moves ahead .... That s why Fischer is the biggest chess player all the time ...he beated the whole powerfull conspiracy machine wich stood against him ...the army of ONE ... |
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| Mar-30-13 | | goodevans: Yawn.
Dragi, you have the honour of being only the second ever kibitzer to go on my ignore list. |
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| Mar-30-13 | | Dragi: goodevans - i will start to cry now please dont do that to me .... |
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| Mar-30-13 | | Dragi: goodevans what is your real problem tell me ...tell daddy |
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Mar-30-13
 | | Gypsy: <Gentlemen> Thank you for your great answers/help. I completely missed the <Bg8-h7-e4> path! To a bit lesser extent, I also miscalculated the crux tempo in <Bg8xc4-d5>, when the <Bxc4+> part of it comes with the check, but that would be a more ordinary oversight. Great game, great end-game! One for the ages and books of endgame studies. |
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| Mar-30-13 | | JENTA: <Karpova: Grischuk didn't refute the Berlin and Kramnik didn't enter a worse endgame - it was a level endgame, if at all then slightly better for Kramnik. I guess people think so because of the doubled c-pawn but Kramnik's knight was a much better piece than Grischuk's Bishop (and his blunder in the end resulted from his desire to trade it off).> - Well, it is also a kind of conspiracy theory that my intuitive evaluation of that position was based solely on the fact that black (Kramnik) had a doubled pawns on the queenside. In fact I took into notice that: 1) black has doubled pawns on the queenside;
2) as a result of this, white has a pawn majority on the kingside;
3) after the exchanges there are only white's bishop and black's knight remained, therefore, that pawn majority is more dangerous
(in so far, everything is classical concerning Spain);
4) after g2-g4, white's pawns on the kingside are somewhat blocked;
5) black has a very good knight in as yet quite closed position;
6) NB! White has a dark-coloured bishop Bb2 and most of black's pawns are on the dark squares. Therefore: for white it is difficult to defend one's pawns - while in the case of some exchanges it is very easy to attack black's pawns quickly on either side of the board.
Actually, black's pawns h6 and g5 on black squares are fixed after <29. g2-g4 !>
All white needs is the move e5-e6 or the move f2-f4 at a sober moment.
I admit that I have not analyzed that position. I do not know the exact answer about this situation. However, in a blitz I have won such positions. Therefore, Grischuk's move <30. Bb2:d4 ??> perhaps rather shows his complete misunderstanding of the position. Positionally, it would have been better to sacrifice the pawn e5 with the move e5-e6 or to play f3-f4 than to exchange black's knight on d4 and to give him a defended passed pawn. Note also that in case white can play with check Bf6+ and then Bg5: or first Bh6: and later Bg5:+ with check. Concerning conspiracy theories: all this only makes the hypothesis about the agreement only initially probable as one of many possible explanations of white's major mistake. The hypothesis about the agreement is a good candidate hypothesis here. Afterwards, one has to choose the best explanation from the list of candidate explanations. Here, a chess historian for example, would ask for some additional strong evidence, for a "smoking gun" like the discovered e-mail, etc. However, concerning the game Aronian - Kramnik, for example the hypothesis that from the very beginning it was an agreement that Aronian should lose - this explanation of the move <50. g5-g6> is highly implausible from the very beginning for every one who has studied those combinations in that game.
Even if some conspiracy theories might be true, nevertheless some conspiracy theorists have a very strange and deviant logic. |
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| Mar-30-13 | | Eyal: Position after 41.g4:
click for larger viewKramnik said after the game that at first he was certain Black is winning here after 41...Ke7 42.Kg6 Bxg4 43.Kxg7 Kd7 44.h6 Bf5: 
click for larger viewBut was then shocked to realize that 45.Kf6! (gaining a tempo by attacking the bishop) 45...Bh7 46.Ke5 Kxc7 47.Kd4 Kd6 48.c4! (getting rid of Black's last dangerous pawn - with a black LSB, the queening square of the a-pawn is the "wrong" color) is a draw. |
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| Mar-30-13 | | Eyal: Position after 57.Kc7:
click for larger viewA final trap by Aronian: here the tempting 57...Kd4?? allows White to draw with 58.Kd6! Kxc4 59.Ke5 getting to the g-pawn. |
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| Mar-31-13 | | csmath: Aronian's ability to estimate the position are not exactly very good. After 14. ... Bb7!
it is already clear that white has no advantage and you do not need to be gifted to see that. Basically there is an offer to draw which was a reasonable thing to do: 15. Bxb5 ... f4
16. Bc4 ... Qe4
17. Be3 ... Qd5
with forced repetition.
This was noted by Short in live commentary. Obviously Aronian overestimated his chances and in few moves got himself into lost position. Actually Aronian said something like that in postgame analysis on Kramnik's surprise. This is actually typical for weak games of Aronian. His sense of position and assessment is weaker than his attacking hunch. He has a very hard time in handling Kramnik precisely because Kramnik senses danger better than Aronian and knows when to offer draw and when to continue fighting. |
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| Mar-31-13 | | csmath: <It's like I said last night. These days Class C and D players consult their engines and proclaim the results to be obvious. 1800 is being charitable.> I think g6 is obvious and clear mistake. In both cases with g6 and h6 it takes three moves to pick up white pawns but in h6 case KING IS ONE FILE CLOSER TO CENTER after picking up the second pawn. That is a huge difference in this kind of endings! This is just straingforward calculation and you do not need engine to see it. Perhaps you cannot estimate whether you draw or not but you can see that you are certainly going to be worse with g6. These kind of short-term calculation in pawn endings [pawn rectangles etc] we all do when learning chess on beginners level and if one cannot then that one cannot progress. Thus while this is not a bad patzer-like error like Grischuk did it is still a terrible error. I think a master player can spot this difference between h6 and g6 in minute or two and no more is needed. Another thing which is also easy to spot is what exactly g6 move does? I had that question myself during the live game. If white did not make that move he would be in the same position. Black would still need 3 moves to pick up white pawn and return to g-file. That makes move g6 actually completely pointless! |
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| Mar-31-13 | | csmath: I think I can explain Aronian's error with 50. g6? I think it was just a reflex without much calculation. I think he probably was getting tired in calculation what after g6 (or h6). There is a tricky part that c-pawn actually does not go anywhere further than c4 while a-pawn promotes. That is I think confusing calculation that had impact on blowing up the whole thing with g6 move. It is sort of obvious that c-pawn will not be able to promote and will have to serve as a defensive block but it is not clear how many moves a-pawn, c-pawn and king will need while black comes back to center. Some confusing arithmetic, I would agree. For that more time is needed and Aronian was probably rather tired so he just moved g6 on a lousy "hunch." This is his habit with tactics as well.
The sad part is that with h6 the draw was simpler to see. |
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| Mar-31-13 | | jussu: I think a really bored and tired me could come up with a fuzzy "calculation" like this: "how about pushing the g-pawn away from danger for now? Oh great, then I'll put the c-pawn to c4 and push my a-pawn, and Black will need four moves to clear g6 for maneuvring his bishop to e4, and I think this line may even win, let's go for it" |
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| Mar-31-13 | | fligorna: <OneArmedScissor: Where are your gods now, Kramnik haters?>
I am not "Kramnik hater". Actually , I am nobody hater, but this game, sorry, is a FARCE . Everyone indifferent player, after 41-st move, will fix the draw quite easy..What Levon did?? Was it a fairplay?!? You have to be absolutely blind not to see the TRANSPARENT deceit.. Disgusting! |
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| Mar-31-13 | | goodevans: Aronian went into the game knowing he needed a win to keep any realistic tournament hopes alive. He continued to press for a win long after he should have been looking for a draw. You can call this poor judgement (as <csmath> does) or just desperation as he saw his chances slipping through his fingers. What you can't call it is a conspiracy or a "TRANSPARENT deceit". Not unless you're a nutter anyway. |
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| Mar-31-13 | | jussu: Totally obvious. The World #2 and #3, both having the WCh title at reach, decided, just for fun, to play it dirty and simply hand a win to one of them. Then, instead of agreeing to hang a piece in the opening or resort to a 20-move minature, they spent seven hours and buckets of sweat playing an impressive, highly complicated game where Black had the win most of the time, but wriggling through the complications was practically terribly hard. Then they set a draw on the board, again, just for fun, and eventually maneuvered to the pre-agreed result. Every detail in this game is leaking glowing evidence of foul play. |
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| Mar-31-13 | | King Radio: People who find conspiracy in constant everyday events are disgusting. |
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| Mar-31-13 | | DoctorD: I had assumed that 46. h6 (earlier) was the intent of the previous two moves, with the before mentioned idea of c4! at the right time for White, leading to that ending with the wrong color bishop/ rook pawn combination. |
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| Mar-31-13 | | Ulhumbrus: If White can gain no more than a draw from the attack such a result from the opening cannot satisfy White and one must look earlier for an alternative. Lasker has given a suggestion by the old rule "distrust pawn moves in the opening" in this case the move 8 a3. An alternative to 11 0-0 is 11 Bb5 undermining Black's control of the square e5 eg 11 Bb5 Bf6 12 Bxc6 bxc6 but White may lack a tempo needed to gain the advantage eg 13 0-0 c5 15 dc Nxc3 16 bxc3 Qa5 It is possible that after 10...f5!! White lacks a tempo needed to take advantage of this weakening of e5 and e6 and that on the contrary he has to defend the threat of ...Bf6. Then where has White lost the needed tempo? The answer is that White has lost a tempo on the pawn move a3. All this suggests so far that Kramnik found in fact a brilliant way to take advantage of the loss of time incurred by 8 a3. |
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| Apr-01-13 | | master of defence: What's wrong with 24.Qxc5 Qxc5 25.dxc5 Kxh7 26.Rd7? |
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| Apr-01-13 | | shivasuri4: <master of defence>, White will remain a piece down after 26...Nc6. |
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| Apr-09-13 | | lost in space: I am just starting to expoid this game here.
My first question is why white played in this position 
click for larger view18. Qc2 (piece sac) and not the normal 18. Bd2.
It seems to me that 18. Bd2 Nxd4 19. Nxd4 Bxd4 20. Bb4 f3 21. Qc2 fxg2 22. Rh5 Rxf2 23. Bxh7+ Kh8 24. Be4+ is an alternative, or?
click for larger view |
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| Apr-09-13 | | Eyal: <It seems to me that 18. Bd2 Nxd4 19. Nxd4 Bxd4 20. Bb4 f3 21. Qc2 fxg2 22. Rh5 Rxf2 23. Bxh7+ Kh8 24. Be4+ is an alternative, or?> First, it's a draw, and at this stage Aronian was apparently still playing for a win; but White may actually improve here with 22.Rf5. However, Black is better after 19...Qxc5 (instead of Bxd4) 20.Qxe6+ (20.Nxe6 Qc6 21.Qg4 Rf7) 20...Rf7 (20...Kh8 21.Qh3 h6 22.Ne6) 21.Bxh7+ Kxh7 22.Qxf7 Qxd4 23.Qxb7 Rd8! 24.Qf3 (24.Qxa6 Qxb2 & Qc2) 24...Qd5! and now 25.Qxf4 loses to 25...Bg5 and after a queen exchange White would lose his Q-side pawns. |
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| Apr-09-13 | | lost in space: Agreed, the end postion given in my post is clearly draw and agreed too: Arionian had to play for a win as only a win could help him, no draw. But still: it is not very clever to play for a win with inferior moves. And 18. Qc2 was clearly inferior. Will have a look to the lines given in your post and come back later. This game is not only interesting due to his endgame, also opening and middle game were very complex and interesting. So there is still a lot to do and learn |
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| Apr-09-13 | | lost in space: Here an interesting sideline:
click for larger viewAronian played 20. fxe3.
Alternative:
20. Rh5 Nxd4 21. Be4+ Kg8 22. Bxb7 Rad8 23. Nxd4 Bxd4 24. Bf3 exf2+ 25. Kf1 Qf4 26. Qh7+ Kf7 
click for larger view
Not very interesting for a player who desperately needs to win...and not complex enough. Seems I was wrong with my first thought that this could have improved Aronians game. Sigh |
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| Apr-09-13 | | Eyal: Btw, I was talking about Aronian playing for a win not only because of the tournament situation, but also because what he said at the press conference made clear that at that stage he overestimated his chances (he said that after 17.Rc5 he felt he was close to winning). At any rate, it's been pointed out that after Kramnik's inaccurate 20...Ne7 (instead of 20...Rac8! immediately): 
click for larger view Aronian could have forced a draw with the ingenious <21.Rh5!> Rac8 22.Ne5(!) Bxe5 23.dxe5 Qb6 24.Qd3, and Black has nothing better than forcing a perpetual with 24...Rcd8 (24...Rfd8? 25.Rf1!! and Black has no defense against the mating idea Bg6+/Bf7+/Rh8+ etc.) 25.Qxd8 Qxe3+ 26.Kh1 Bxg2+ 27.Kxg2 Qe2+ etc. But perhaps White can even play for more in this line with <22.Qe2>. One point, for example, is that unlike 22.Qd3 Bxf3 23.gxf3 Ng8! with the knight coming to h6 to defend against checks (a line mentioned by Kramnik at the press conference), after 22.Qe2 Bxf3 23.Qxf3 Ng8 White is winning, since the queen can come to e4: 24.Bb1+ Nh6 25.Qe4 Kg8 26.Rxh6! |
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