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Later Kibitzing> |
| Feb-06-10 | | brucejavier: cant believe im 1st, must admit, i wouldnt have played N*e6. Nice game by the way.. |
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Feb-06-10
 | | OBIT: I have to admit, I think Black is better here. 15. Qg4 is too slow, as Black has 15...Nxd4! OTB, I'd be playing 15. Be3. If there is a win here, I'm guessing it is 15. Nxe6 fxe6 16. Qg4, since now 16...Nxd4? 17. cxd4 Qxd4?? gives White a mate in two. However, I don't see anything wrong with 16...Kf7. At best, I'd call this sacrifice "unclear". This should be interesting.... |
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Feb-06-10
| | OBIT: Heh, the game continuation doesn't exactly satisfy my curiosity, as Black didn't play 16...Kf7. I suppose I can figure this out on my own, but it seems like a lot of work. It sure would be nice if someone worked out the win for me. :) |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Brandon plays: This actually wasn't all that hard for me to see the first couple of moves. Nxe6 fxe6 Qg5 with quite a few possibilities for white. Honestly, beyond that point, I didn't have any really strong mating attack worked out. I saw that I won two pawns and lines against the enemy king in exchange for a minor piece. Good game, by the way. |
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| Feb-06-10 | | mrsaturdaypants: I want to play 15 Nxe6, and if 15...fxe6, then 16 Qg4. I can't see black's best defense clearly, but I think white can bring four pieces to bear against the black king, and that seems like enough. And I think the attack arrives quickly enough that black won't have time to launch a counter-attack on the white king via d4. Time to look. |
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Feb-06-10
| | OBIT: OK, after 15. Nxe6 fxe6 16. Qg4 Kf7, the move 17. Rh3 is starting to look pretty good. Maybe White has a lot more than I initially thought. |
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Feb-06-10
 | | An Englishman: Good Evening: I didn't see the game combination, but instead focused on 15.Nxe6,fxe6; 16.Qg4,Kf7; 17.Rh7,Rg8; 18.d5. It looked like a decent speculative sacrifice, but I couldn't see a forced win. |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Brandon plays: Obit, I agree. There seems to be quite a bit of planning left to play in this game if he did play Kf7. One idea for white is to possibly play d5 in the future after he removes the threat of Bxc3+. Without checking it on the computer, how about 17. Rh7 pinning the black bishop so that he can't move. This also threatens the bishop move to h6. And it has the additional threat of allowing d5 which would be very strong. Personally, I'd pick white any day in this position. The black king could not move to g8 because of Bxe6+ and wins. and the if the black rook moved to protect then d5 seems killer! |
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Feb-06-10
| | OBIT: <An Englishman>I'm a long way from saying I understand the position after 16...Kf7 17. Rh3, but I think the rook is heading to f3 and the dark-squared bishop is most likely going to g5. A hair-raising continuation is 17...Nxd4!? 18. cxd4 Bxd4 19. Rf3+ Kg7. |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Skylark: I was looking in completely the opposite direction with 15. Nh5!? - my variations went as such: 15. ... gxh5 16. Qxh5 Kf8 17. Bh6 Bxh6 18. Qxh6+ and here 18. .. Ke8 19. d5!! Na5 20. Qf6 with a huge advantage to white if not mating 18. .. Ke7 19. Qg5+ Kd6 20. e5+ Nxe5 21. Qxe5+ and here either 21. .. Kc6 22. Qe4+ Kd6 23. d5! or 21. .. Ke7 22. Qg5+ Kd6 23. d5! both win for white. So taking the knight is no good, what other options does black have? If any other move (say for example, 15. .. Bh8) then 16. Bg5! is crushing. Is there a reasonable defense to 15. Nh5 is what I would like to know. Because that is for sure 100% what I would have played in game - I didn't even look at 15. Nxe6. |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Quentinc: I like <An Englishman's> continuation of 17. Rh7 (also threatening Bxe6+ followed by Rxg7+). Then in the line Englishman gives: 17...Rg8 18.d5 Nd8 (what else?) 19.Bh6 looks rather terrible for Black. If, say, 19...Qd6, then 20.Bxg7 Rxg7 21.dxe6+ wins quickly. |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Quentinc: <Skylark,> 16...Nxd4 (or maybe even Na5) looks better for Black than Kf8 (which wastes time after Bh6). |
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Feb-06-10
| | OBIT: <Quentinc>No, no, after 17. Rh7 we must not even consider playing defense with moves like ...Rg8. The position demands we turn this into a street fight. I suggest 17...Nxd4 18. cxd4 Qc6. Now 19. Bh6 is refuted by 19...Qc3+, since 20. Kd1 Rxd5 mates. |
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Feb-06-10
 | | Jimfromprovidence: I like 15...Ne5!? as a defense.
click for larger view There are multiple possiblities for both sides here.
If white follows with 16 Nxd8, for example, then 16...Nd3+ follows, causing white all kinds of trouble. What does white do now, take with the queen or dangerously move the king to d2?
click for larger view |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Quentinc: <Obit,> funny, Nxd4 was my reply to Skylark's idea -- should have thought of it here too. But if I were White I'd reply with 18.Bh6 instead of taking the knight. The bishop guards d2, at least for now. |
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Feb-06-10
| | OBIT: <Quentinc>Yeh, for the last several minutes I've also been looking at 18. Bh6 instead of taking the knight. The complications in these lines are mind numbing. I'm going to bed before my head explodes. |
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Feb-06-10
| | An Englishman: Good Evening: So far, we've had some excellent ideas. The 15...Ne5!? line intrigues: 16.Nxd8!?,Nd3+; 17.Qxd3!:,Bxd3; 18.Nxf7,Kf8!?; 19.Ba3+,Ke8; 20.0-0-0 looks completely unclear. Meanwhile, <OBIT> has two good ideas: 17.Rh7,Nxd4, and even better, going to bed before our heads explode. See you tomorrow, after the silicon monsters have had their way. |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Skylark: <Quentinc> 15. Nh5 gxh5 16. Qxh5 Nxd4 17. Qh7+ Kf8 18. Bh6 Bxh6 19. Qxh6+ Ke8 20. Rd1 gives white a strong attack whilst recuperating the piece, whereas 16. .. Na5 17. Qh7+ Kf8 18. Bh6 Bxh6 19. Qxh6+ Ke8 20. d5 I like white's position although the position looks fairly level, ie after 20. ... Nxb3 21. axb3 exd5 22. Rxa6 Okay 15. Nxh5 isn't as clear cut plus for white as 15. Nxe6, but over the board I think I would have played 15. Nh5 if only because there are many perpetual fallback nets if white can't find a way to force a plus. It proves Lasker's saying well though - if you think you've found a good move, sit on your hands until you find a better one. |
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| Feb-06-10 | | Once: Well, I had the same basic idea, but I sacked the knight for the other pawn... 15. Nxg6 fg (what else?) 16. Qg4 (transposing back to the game line). And then we get to here: 
click for larger viewAnd this is where my head started to spin, because black has many defences to try. He can try to hold e6 with 16...Bc8 or 16...Re8, but then white grabs g6. Or he can defend g6 with 16...Qe8 and allow e6 to fall. Or try to hold both with the intensely scary 16...Kf7. Apart from the dodgy-looking 16...Kf7, white is picking up two pawns and an attack in return for his knight. <An Englishman: It looked like a decent speculative sacrifice, but I couldn't see a forced win. > Yup, that about sums it up for me! |
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| Feb-06-10 | | lost in space: 15. Nxe6! fxe6
(15...Ne5 is maybe a good option)
16. Qg4 Re8
(16...Bc8 is passive)
17. Qxg6 Nb4
(can't find anything better. Idea: Qb5 and mate threat on e2) 18. cxb4 Qb5 19. Bxe6+ Rxe6 20. Qxe6+ Kf8 21. Qf5+ Qxf5 22. exf5 and White is much better. 
click for larger viewE.g.: 22...Bc4
(22... Bxd4 23. Bh6+ Kg8 24. 0-0-0  )
23. Bh6 Re8+ 24. Kd2 Re2+ 25. Kc3 Bxa2 26. Bxg7 Kxg7
click for larger view |
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| Feb-06-10 | | dzechiel: White to move (15?). Material even. "Very Difficult." It looks to me like black's weakness will turn out to be the a2-g8 diagonal. After 15 Nxe6
Attacking the rook and the bishop.
15...fxe6 16 Qg4
White has threats on both the black e-pawn and g-pawn. I don't think black has time for 16...Kf7
as 17 d5
is difficult to meet. I'm sure there's a lot more going on (and I could be completely off base here). But this has the right feel, so I think I at least started down the right path. Time for me to check (it's very late). |
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Feb-06-10
 | | scormus: Well, it was marked as very difficult! <Once> Yes 15. Nxg6 looks like transposing to the game continuation, but I think it has to be Nxe6 to keep black out of any immediate mischief on d4. So 15... fe 16. Qg4, then Kf7 looks promising. How about 17. Rh3 Rh8 18. Rf3+ Bf6 19. Rxf6+ (is this a ! or ?). Or is 19. d5 OK as white's c-pawn is now defended? Interesting, maybe Kf7 was a better defense. It's times like this I envy people who have Fritz |
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| Feb-06-10 | | nuwanda:
after 15.Kxe6 fe 16.Qg4 Kf7 17.Rh7 introduces the monsterthread Bxe6+, which i think cannot be ignored, for example after <OBIT>'s 17...Nxd4 18.cd Qc6 19.Bxe6+ is killing.the problem is that this and whites additional thread Bh6 forces black to play Rg8, after which the black king has no way back after checks on the f-file, e.g. 17...Rg8 18.Bh6 Nd8 19.Qf3+, so that he will loose back his extra-piece with a rotten position. so i think 16...Kf7 doesnt work. but then white will win a socond pawn on g6, and that together with his strong attack should give him more than enough compensation for his sacrifice. ... |
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| Feb-06-10 | | amathus: 15. Bxe6, fxe6 16.Nxg6 with the idea to bring the Queen to attach (Qg4 or Qh5) but black has eventually offer counter attacks on d4, anyone who considered this line? |
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| Feb-06-10 | | LoveThatJoker: If you found the tactical sequence that starts with 15. Nxe6 and ends with 17. Qxg6 then by all means give yourself a pat on the back. However, if in your blindfold calculations (I'm assuming that you solve these puzzles blindfold) you found 18. Rh3!! then you should consider lobbying the organizers of GM tournaments to include you in their list of participants. I had calculated up until White's 17th move and then looked at many other moves - without coming up with the 18th as played in the game. 18. Rh3!! is the real (lovely) point to this combination. What a tactical monster Pia Cramling is!
LTJ |
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Kibitzing
sac: 15.Nxe6
