|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-20-09 | | Stoned Knight: I had seen NxE5 s a way of having the move king and regain the queen but I had ruled it out because it would lose a piece. Did white player see that far? I mean, I am not a great player but I thought that few people in the world could actually foresee 10 moves ahead. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | Marmot PFL: <LIFE Master AJ> I am running an old free version that doesn't even have an opening book. I would like the latest version with all openings, and a faster computer, and an ICC account, but right now am barely making rent. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | gofer: <MenisfromVenis>
14 ... Qxg5
15 c3+ Ke3
16 0-0 Qc5 ...
:-) |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | agb2002: Material is even. This positions reminds me of Legal's mate. Therefore, 9.Nxe5: A) 9... Bxd1 10.Bxf7+ Ke7 11.Bg5+ Kd6 12.Ne4+ Kxe5 13.f4+ Kd4 (13... Kf5 14.Ng3#) 14.Kd2 and mate in three: 14... Nc4+ 15.Bxc4 Bb4+ 16.c3+ Bxc3 17.bxc3#. B) 9... Nxe5 10.Qxh5 Ng6 (10... Qe7 11.0-0 (11.Bg5 Nf3+) 0-0-0 (11... g6 12.Qe2  ) 12.Bf4 ) 11.Qf3 Qe7+ 12.Kd1 0-0-0 13.Qxf7 and the white king in the center probably won't compensate the two pawn deficit, although 11.0-0 is probably a safer alternative. C) 9... Qh4 10.Nf3 (10.g3 Bxd1 11.gxh4 Nxe5 12.Kxd1 h5 followed by Ng6(f3) or Be7) Qe7+ 11.Be3 (11.Qe2 Bxf3) followed by 0-0 with advantage. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | gofer: <Eduardo Leon: It seems like 14. ... Qxg5 15. c3+ Ke3 16. fxg5 Kf4 (otherwise 17. 0-0) lets the black king return home and remain a piece up, but it doesn't work: 17. Rf1+ Ke5 18. d4+ Kxe4 19. Kd2!.> Why play 16 ... Kf4?
16 ... Ne5 seems to hold the position for black, which is why I think white has to play 16 Nxg5 in this line... Any thoughts? |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | agb2002: As <Eduardo Leon> pointed out 14.Kd2 is an oversight that allows 14... Bxc2. I forgot that bishop... |
|
Sep-20-09
 | | LIFE Master AJ: I also verified that 9.NxP/e5 IS in Fritz 11's book. (Which is really amazing, all things considered.) This is one of the reasons why human's can't compete on equal terms with a computer anymore. (How many GM's have 3 million games in their memory? Of course, the answer is ZERO.) |
|
Sep-20-09
 | | Open Defence: <How many GM's have 3 million games in their memory? Of course, the answer is ZERO.> maybe Kasparov :) Korchnoi would be a close second :) |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | Madman99X: For those who may have had trouble with Rybka solving this puzzle: I plugged it into my Rybka 2 which after 9. Nxe5 Bxd1 10. Bxf7+ Ke7 11. Bg5+ Kd6 12. Ne4+ Kxe5 13. f4+ Kd4 14. Rxd1 Qxg5 shows a dead draw. The problem? Rybka didn't think it could legally castle. I set it back up feeling a little sheepish, and it found the solution. |
|
Sep-20-09
 | | sackman: What an awesome kinghunt (thanks chessgames) but you'd have to be playing correspondence to work this out! |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | WhiteRook48: wow...
I got 9 Nxe5 Bxd1 10 Bxf7+ Ke7 when 11 Nd5+ loses to 11...Nxd5, thinking a little more, I saw 11 Bg5+ Kd6 and went overboard here with 12 Nb5+??
good for a Sunday puzzle though |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | wals: Imbaud - Strumilo, corr 1922
Analysis by Rybka 3 1-cpu:32bit: ply 17 time 5min 21 1. (1.05): 9.Nxe5 Qh4 10.Nf3 Qe7+ 11.Be3 0-0-0 12.0-0 h6 13.Ne4 Ne5 14.g4
2. = (0.25): 9.Be3 Bd6 10.0-0 0-0 11.Ne4 Be7 12.Qe2 Nd5 13.Rae1 Nxe3 14.fxe3 Bg6 15.Qf2 h6 16.Qg3 Rybka found Nxe5 within 15 sec. |
|
Sep-20-09
 | | Jimfromprovidence: <<gofer> Eduardo Leon: It seems like 14. ... Qxg5 15. c3+ Ke3 16. fxg5 Kf4 (otherwise 17. 0-0) lets the black king return home and remain a piece up, but it doesn't work: 17. Rf1+ Ke5 18. d4+ Kxe4 19. Kd2!.> <Why play 16 ... Kf4?
16 ... Ne5 seems to hold the position for black, which is why I think white has to play 16 Nxg5 in this line... Any thoughts?>
Don't forget that white can still castle. After 17 O-O, black is trapped in a mating net (per Rybka freeware). 
click for larger view |
|
Sep-20-09
 | | Domdaniel: The real beauty of this is in the way black's king gets pulled down into a central vortex, with mate a constant threat. Meanwhile, the black queen on d8 and the white bishop on g5 -- which tend to be exchanged in similar combinations -- never move. Black deserves credit for putting up a tough defence -- but that's a corr phenomenon as much as the attack is. As for holding 3 million games in a human memory, forget it. The psychologist George Miller wrote a famous paper showing that people have trouble holding on to *seven* distinct items at once. Not quite the same thing, I admit: but human memory is still a lot more limited than we like to think. And the brain has no logic circuits. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | Blunderdome: I saw that Nxe5 could probably lead into a mating attack but couldn't calculate it to the end. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | WarmasterKron: I looked at Nxe5, but only briefly before deciding it was a spoiler puzzle and I wouldn't be fooled. So I plumped for 9.O-O. Ironically, I'd probably play Nxe5 OTB, more speculatively than anything else. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | Eduardo Leon: <Jimfromprovidence>, you're right. In fact, in the line <14. ... Qxg5 15. c3+ Ke3 16. fxg5 Ne5 17. 0-0> if black plays
<17. ... Nxd3>
then he loses to the genius move
<18. Ng3!>
and now
<18. ... Ne5>
only delays the mate
<19. Rfe1+ Kf4 20. Rd4+ Kxg3 21. Re3+ Nf3 22. Rxf3#> |
|
Sep-20-09
| | OBIT: The moves leading up to Nxe5 in this game are sufficiently nondescript to where I wonder if this position can occur in other openings, even with colors reversed. For example, playing around with an openings database, I found a game played in 1986 by a 2480 player (I can't tell who the players were, just the ratings and date) that started 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4 ed 5. Nxd4 Nf6 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 Nc6 8. Nb3. Here, 8...Nxe4!? 9. Bxd8? Bxf2+ transposes to the main line of the puzzle. However, with the Black bishop on c5, the critical line after 8...Nxe4 appears to be 9. Nxc5! Nxc3!, when 10. Bxd8 Nxd1 11. Bxc7 dxc5 12. Rxd1 Be6 takes all the fun out of this. A more interesting line looks like 10. Qh5!? g6. At any rate, 8...Nxe4 was NOT played in the 1986 game - the move was 8...Bb4. It's a lot less interesting, but probably better. Oh well... this is just another one of those times where the move you'd really like to play isn't the objectively best choice. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | johnlspouge: Sunday (Insane):
Imbaud vs Strumilo, 1922 (9.?) White to play and win.
Material: Even. The Black Ke8 has 2 legal moves. The White Bb3 attacks Pf7, ready to deflect or decoy its only protector, Ke8. The White Qd1 x-rays Bh5 through the White Nf3, and Nf3-g5 or Nf3-e5 attacks f7. The candidate 9.Bxf7+ is therefore worthy of examination. The White Ke1 is secured from check. Candidates (9.): Bxf7+, Nxe5
[9.Bxf7+ Kxf7
(1’) 10.Ng5+ Qxg5 11.Bxg5 Bxd1 12.Kxd1 leaves White down N for P (2’) 10.Nxe5+ Nxe5 11.Qxh5+ Ng3 12.Qf5+ Qf6 leaves White down N for 2P] 9.Nxe5 (threatening 10.Qxh5, winning a P)
9…Bxd1 [else, drop Pe5 for nothing]
10.Bxf7+ Ke7 11.Bg5+ Kd3
Candidates (12.): Nb5+, Ne4+
[12.Nb5+ Kxe5 13.f4+ Kf5 14.g4+ Bxg4 15.hxg4+ Kxg4 16.Be6+ The candidate 12.Nb5+ leaves Nb5 out of the action unnecessarily.] 12.Ne4+ Kxe5 13.f4+ Kd4 [Kf5 14.Ng3#]
<[I looked at 14.c3+, but could not see anything. The puzzle impresses me.]> |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | johnlspouge: < <Marmot PFL> wrote: [snip] Of course when you have 3 days or so per move and can move the pieces its all a bit easier. [snip] > <Marmot>, <Marmot>, <Marmot>, thank you, thank you!!! Yes - it's a correspondence game! Next Sunday might drive me to set up a board and move the pieces, but right now, I feel sooooooo much better about missing this one. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | megatacos: bf7 was such a nice move |
|
Sep-20-09
 | | FSR: This is a famous game. As I recall, the game continuation was 9.Nxe5!! Bxd1 10.Bxf7+ Ke7 11.Bg5+ Kd6 12.Ne4+! Kxe5 13.f4+ Kd4 14.Rxd1! with a winning attack. Luckily for White, this was a correspondence game, so he could analyze at his leisure. |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | johnlspouge: < <Domdaniel> wrote: [snip] As for holding 3 million games in a human memory, forget it. The psychologist George Miller wrote a famous paper showing that people have trouble holding on to *seven* distinct items at once. > Hi, <Domdaniel>. The seven distinct items refer to short-term memory. For most people, e.g., a single phone number is all they can recall without rehearsal. Long-term memory holds much more information, otherwise none of us would function very well. (Maybe I am defeating my own argument, but you get the point...) |
|
Sep-20-09
| | FSR: I'm surprised that more people don't seem to be familiar with this game. I played it over many years ago from Fred Reinfeld's "Chess: Win in 20 Moves or Less" and Irving Chernev's "1000 Best Short Games of Chess." |
|
| Sep-20-09 | | TheBish: Imbaud vs Strumilo, 1922 White to play (9.?) "Insane"
It was pretty obvious what the move is here, with so few options! As usual, the insanity is in the details. 9. Nxe5!!
This wins at least a pawn (9...Nxe5 10. Qxh5), or much more if Black accepts the "Greek gift". 9...Bxd1 10. Bxf7+ Ke7 11. Bg5+ Kd6 12. Ne4+!
White is playing for mate! I found Ne4+ myself, but when I put this on Fritz 7, the silicon beast wanted to play 12. f4, which is unsatisfactory after 12...Qxg5 13. Ne4+ Ke7 14. Nxg5 Nxe5 15. fxe5 Bxc2 15. Rc1 h6 16. Rxc2 c6! and White will be a piece down. 12...Kxe5 13. f4+ Kd4 14. Rxd1!
Accepting nothing less than bagging the enemy king. Instead 14. Kd2? Bxc2! breaks up the mate, and 14. Bxd8 Bxc2 15. Bxc7 Bxd3 gives Black a winning two pawn advantage, with his king relatively safe. Now: A) 14...Qxg5 15. c3+ Ke3 16. 0-0! Nd4 (or 16...Qh4 17. Rf3+ Ke2 18. Rd2+ Ke1 19. Rf1#, or 16...Qxf4 17. Rfe1#) 17. fxg5 Ne2+ 18. Kh1 Nf4 19. Rf3+ Ke2 20. Rd2+ Ke1 21. Re3+ Ne2 22. Rexe2+ Kf1 23. Ng3#. B) 14...Be7? 15. Ke2! (or 15. Kd2) and mate in two after 15...Nd5 16. c3+ Nxd5 17. bxc3#. C) 14...Ke3 15. 0-0! Bb4 16. c3! Nd4 (or 16...Qxd3 17. Rde1+ Qe2 18. Rf3+ Kxe4 19. Rxe2+ Kf5 20. g4#) 17. Rfe1
+ Ne2+ 18. Kf1 Qxg5 19. fxg5 Bd6 20. Rxe2+ Kf4 21. Kg1! Bc5+ 22. d4! Bxd4+ 23. cxd4 Kf5 24. Rf1#. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 9.Nxe5