| Jun-18-09 | | atragon: What about 18. f4 instead of Rb1? Shirov was really forced to lose the pawn? |
|
| Jun-18-09 | | Mulyahnto: <atragon: What about 18. f4 instead of Rb1? Shirov was really forced to lose the pawn?> I think 18. b3 would have sufficed. 18. Rb1 does not allow 19. Bf4 because of simply 19. ... Qf5 and black hangs on to the pawn. |
|
| Jun-18-09 | | Mulyahnto: Gelfand could have played 40. ... e3 41. Bxh7+ Kg7 followed by 42. ... e2 with a huge advantage, but his advantage was big enough for Shirov to resign. After the text move white could still play 41. Rxc5, but the position is still lost. |
|
| Jun-18-09 | | Jason Frost: I'm suprised Shirov decided to keep the queens on the board. It looks like after 20. Rxe4 dxc3 21. b3 the extra pawn isn't so easy to hold for black for example
21...Bb4 22. Re3(not 22. Ra1? c2!) 0-0 23. Ra1 getting the pawn back 21...Bf6 22. Ra5(so as not to allow d5) Rb7 23. Bf3 Rc7 24. Rd1 and it's not so easy for black to break <Mulyahnto>
Really no reason not to resign at that point. After 40...e3 41. Bxh7+ black just has 41...Rxh7 After 40. Rxc5 both the immidiate e3 and just dxc5 are winning in a few moves. There is just now way to stop the pawns from queening. |
|
| Jun-18-09 | | Mulyahnto: <21...Bb4 22. Re3(not 22. Ra1? c2!) 0-0 23. Ra1 getting the pawn back> How does white win the pawn back? First of all, I would play 22...Ke7 instead of 0-0. But after 21...Bb4 22. Re3 Ke7 23. Ra1 Rb6, white cannot 24. a3 because of simply:
24...Bc5 25. Rxc3?? Bd4
and if:
24...Bc5 25. Rd3 Rd6 26. Rxd6 Kxd6 27. b4 Bd4 28. c5+ Kc7 (Needs to go to a dark square to avoid check) and black can either play Ra8 or e5 or whatever. |
|
| Jun-19-09 | | Jason Frost: Good point, but I still like it better than keeping queens on the board and the dangerous pawn on d4 |
|
| Jun-19-09 | | kurtrichards: According to chessgames.com, GM Shirov has beaten GM Gelfand 21 to 15 with 32 draws. |
|
| Jun-19-09 | | ajile: White's opening is a failure. After this game and the recent World game this whole system with c4 and g3 is suspect. White goes through a bunch of gyrations (Qb3,Qc3) just to avoid losing the c4 pawn. The extra time Black gets allows easy equalization. Then after 18.Rb1 Qxe5 Black is simply a pawn up and White has no compensation. |
|
| Jun-19-09 | | Marmot PFL: < ajile> Some comments by Jacob Aagaard (one of my favorite writrers)
<I have always played 4 g3 when facing the Queen's Indian but I have never mistaken the great taste I had for the position with an advantage...
4...Ba6 is probably a better move than 4...Bb7 and certainly more modern.
5 Qb3 might look stupid and, after 5...Nc6! (best) Black is able to exploit the misplacement of the queen to further his own development. However White's move should not be mistaken for being bad since black only equalizes - nothing more.> |
|
| Jun-19-09 | | Oliphaunt: Gelfand's been doing very well lately. |
|
| Jun-19-09 | | ajile: <Marmot PFL:>
So Black equalizes by move 7 and that's not a problem? lol |
|
| Jun-20-09 | | totololo: If 18.Bxd4 then 18....cxd4 19.Qxd4 Bc5
20. Qc3 Qb6 (threat in f2 and b2) 21.Re2 Bd4 22.Qc2 Qxb2 23. Qxb2 Rxb2 24. Rxb2 Bxb2 25. Rb1 Bxe5! and b8 is covered ! (you don't need a computer to calculate that(1 min))So, the black had already a good position.
The question is : what is the optimal plan against the black queen side pressure? I think that 7.Qc2! was better then 7.Qc3... as it controls e4 without alignement with b2/e5. What I observed in the last months is that Gelfand is very up-to-date with the opening he is playing in every game. This shows the importance of the home preparation in such demanding opening as QID....(15-20-25?? moves in long variations??? as in the Chinese championship...) |
|
| Jun-20-09 | | outplayer: What could be best for black and worse for white than playing an opening line which equalises only? |
|
| Nov-15-09 | | notyetagm: http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp... |
|
| Nov-15-09 | | notyetagm: 38 ... ?
click for larger view38 ... ♗c5xf2!
click for larger view(VAR)
39 ♔f1x♗f2 e4-e3+
click for larger viewROGOZEKO (http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp...): <39.Rxd2 [or 39.Kxf2 e3+ and Black queens.]> And Black has thus transformed his dark-squared Black c5-bishop into three powerful <ADVANCED CONNECTED PASSERS>. <<<<That White f2-pawn was the most important piece(!!!) on the board for White>>>: it prevented Black from possessing three <ADVANCED CONNECTED PASSERS>. With its removal by 38 ... ♗c5xf2!, White is powerless to prevent the advance of the <MONSTER PAWNS>.> Think about it. Was the White a5-rook preventing the formation of the monster pawn mass? No. Was the White b3-bishop preventing the formation of the monster pawn mass? No. <WHAT IS PREVENTING THE FORMATION OF THE MONSTER BLACK PASSED PAWN MASS? <<<THE LOWLY WHITE f2-pawn!>>>. Destroy that defender! <REMOVE THE GUARD>! 38 ... ♗c5xf2!.> |
|
| Mar-15-10 | | notyetagm: THE PAWN THAT PREVENTS PASSERS
Shirov vs Gelfand 5th Bazna Tournament 2009 38 ... Bc5xf2! turns Black d2-,e4-,f3-pawn mass into 3(!) connected passers http://www.chessbase.com/news/2009/... <38.Rd1 Bxf2 39.Rxd2 <<<[or 39.Kxf2 e3+ and Black queens.]>>>> |
|
| Mar-15-10 | | notyetagm: Game Collection: *THE* *PAWN* *THAT* *PREVENTS* *PASSERS* Shirov vs Gelfand, 2009 38 ... Bc5xf2! turns Black d2-,e4-,f3-pawn mass into 3(!) connected passers |
|
| Apr-06-10 | | notyetagm: GID
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...
18 ?
FEN
<At this moment Black does not threaten to take the pawn on e5 due to the answer Bf4.> 18 ♖a1-b1?
FEN
<18.Rb1? Blundering a pawn. <<<The rook on b1 changes the situation and Black already can take the pawn.>>> In case of 18.Bxd4 cxd4 19.Qxd4 Bc5 Black will win back the pawn on b2, due to the fact that 20.Qc3, or 20.Qd2 are answered by 20...Bb4. Therefore deserved attention; 18.a3 threatening to take on d4. After 18...Nc6 19.f4 0-0 20.Bc2 White is only slightly worse.> 18 ... ♕c7xe5!
FEN
<18...Qxe5! 19.Bxd4. <<<It turns out that after 19.Bf4 Black has 19...Qf5 attacking the rook on b1.>>> In all variations Black remains with a pawn up.> (VARIATION)
19 ♗e3-f4 ♕e5-f5
FEN
FEN
<Hence Black is able to snatch a pawn in broad daylight with 18 ... ♕c7xe5! because he can escape from the <SKEWER> 19 ♗e3-f4 by 19 ... ♕e5-f5, <<<<GAINING TIME> on the <UNDEFENDED> White b1-rook.>>>> So because of this <THREAT> to the <UNDEFENDED> White b1-rook, the Black queen only <*APPEARS*> to be on e5; Her Majesty is <*ACTUALLY*> on the f5-square, and thus 19 ♗e3-f4 is not *really* a <SKEWER>. |
|
Kibitzing
