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David Lister vs Raymond Keene
"D-Listed" (game of the day Mar-14-2009)
London League (1966), ?, Jan-26
Benoni Defense: Taimanov Variation (A67)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Annotations by Raymond Keene.      [405 more games annotated by Keene]

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Kibitzer's Corner
Mar-14-09  Thrajin: Only two minutes for black... how humiliating that must have been for Keene's opponent.
Mar-14-09  chillowack: Another Game of the Day chosen solely for the pun?

White is so weak, he doesn't even have a rating.

Mar-14-09  nescio: <chillowack: White is so weak, he doesn't even have a rating.>

I'm sure both players had no rating in 1966.

Mar-14-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: 23...Bb5 would have left black a piece up. After 25. Qf2, where's the win?
Mar-14-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  ray keene: some relevant comments

there is a typo in the moves-whites 21st was red1 not rf1-so the bb5 option doesnt really exist

secondly international ratings didnt exist at all in 1966 as far as i know

i took two minutes because i had to play two matches that evening-my opponent arrived as late as possible for this game so i only had 2 minutes to make all my moves -run to the railway station and then catch a train to the next match -otherwise i wd have arrived too late for that one

of course under modern rules my opponent here wd have lost on forfeit being just a second late instead of 58 minutes late as he was

the rules of this competiton allowed for adjudication after completion of 24 moves-hence whites apparent resignation when there is still a little fight left-white in fact lost on adjudication.

i hope that sets the scene for this particular encounter!

Mar-14-09  Malawi Nick: Thanks Ray for correcting the typo. The play after white's 21st makes more sense now.

But especially thanks for adding the colour to this game, through the story you tell, which enables us to appreciate this game beyond just the moves.

It would be great if CG were to include more of such background colour to GOTDs - as in the annotation to the last move on this game and like sometimes a photo is included. Admittedly, such colour often appears in the comments, but it would be good if the colour is added as an annotation to the first move (and/or a photo), so that the context of the game can be appreciated from the outset.

Mar-14-09  WhiteRook48: he was not Keene on Listing
Mar-14-09  kevin86: I've got soul! and I'm super-fast!

Not a bad game for Mr. Keene.

Mar-14-09  outplayer: Black has used 2 minutes on this game. Lol.
Mar-14-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  playground player: Never mind all that--I want to know how Mr. Keene made out solving the murder case on which he was consulted!
Mar-14-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: I'm always interested when the powerful Taimanov Variation gets blown away. The line has a good repuation and some gaudy percentages, but it is also very sharp. If White does not follow up exactly, he will find himself overextended.

9.a4 is the most usual move. White knows he'll probably have to play it at some point, and this is a good moment. The bishop will have to retreat eventually, but it's better to wait until Black spends some time to persuade it to leave. Also, delaying the bishop retreat allows White to assess how the position is shaping up before deciding which square will be best for the bishop.

Then White makes some tactical boo-boos and loses quickly. Very quickly.

Mar-14-09  chillowack: When this game was first posted, Keene had a rating but his opponent didn't. Back then, my joke about Lister not having a rating made sense. Then the ChessGames.com folks deleted Keene's rating, yanking the rug out from under me and rendering my comment meaningless. Foiled again!

I enjoyed Keene's play in this game: as with most of his games on this site, he demonstrates a creative tactical flair.

Mar-14-09  patzer2: Black's pawn pseudo sacrifice 13...c4! sets up 14...Rxb5! to win a piece via the double attack (Queen Fork) tactic.

P.S.: I once knew a class C player who insisted the Rook was always worth more than two pieces. The fact that GMs like Keene don't hesitate to make that trade (Rook for two minor pieces) and the result of this game provide evidence to the contrary.

Mar-14-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: <patzer2: . . . I once knew a class C player who insisted the Rook was always worth more than two pieces.>

An interesting point. Of course two pieces aren't *always* worth more than a ♖; under the right circumstances even a ♕ may not be worth more than a ♖.

What I wonder is, how much variation is there? To put the question in precise terms, if we looked at a sample of 100 master games and used a standard engine -- say, Rybka or Fritz at 20 plies -- to calculate the change in the value of a position before and after the swap of ♗+♘ for a ♖ whenever this is possible, what would the mean change in the evaluation be? More to the point, what would the dispersion about the mean be, i.e., the root mean square of the variation?

Presumably, since this is thought to be a bad trade most of the time, the mean change would be negative. It *should* be equal in magnitude to the difference in values of the weights the programmers assign to the pieces, i.e., 1.0 or close to it. If the rms of the variation is much less than that, then the rule of thumb is highly reliable. But if the opposite turned out to be true, it would imply that the "bad" trade is often good.

But maybe I'm the only one who thinks this is interesting?

Mar-14-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  ray keene: <playground player> i solved the chess puzzle but the courts let the guy off on a technicality-the body was never found so the victim just vanished-which seems unlikely-if you go back in the archive of the times to the summer of 1990 you shd be able to find the reports of the time which were extensive
Mar-14-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  ray keene: 9bd3 was the fashionable move at the time and i was quite pleased with my line against it-here the two minor pieces certainly out perform the rook
Mar-14-09  patzer2: <al wazir> I'm also interested in studying positions where there might be an exception to the rule that two minor pieces are worth gaining for the trade of a rook. I'd also like to know more about how to coordinate my minor pieces to maximum advantage in this situation.

However, I'd think more useful than a statistical study might be a discussion in a middle game strategy/tactics book by a GM -- indicating positions (such as this game) which favor the side exchanging the rook for the two minor pieces, or favor the other side, or is otherwise equal. It might also make for an interesting game collection.

P.S.: One thought is that Experts and Masters, as opposed to the average club player, are better able to take advantage of coordinating positions where the two minor pieces gained are stronger than the exchanged rook.

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