|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jun-07-14 | | diagonalley: ... well... 18....RxB is just about the only move with promise... there's enough firepower to follow up with and most of white's forces are off-side... i'd close my eyes and give it a whirl! |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | Nick46: After ?? months on this wonderful site even I got 18....Rxf4. On n'arrête pas le progrès. |
|
Jun-07-14
 | | Once: I am struggling here. I'm trying very hard to suppress a feeling of "meh". I know I shouldn't, but it's awfully hard to resist... There seems to be a hidden exchange rate in chess. We all know that a knight is supposed to be worth 3 pawns, a rook five pawns and so on. But players also accumulate a number of other exchange rates. Connected passed pawns on the seventh can be worth more than a rook, and so on. And we quickly learn that it's worth giving up the exchange to shatter the protection around the enemy king. Take this fragment: 
click for larger viewIf black has pieces ready to flood into the kingside then Rxf3 just begs to be examined. It's probably a more than fair exchange. We get to muss up his pawns and attack his king. So in today's POTD, the starting moves of 18...Rxf4 and 19...Qh4 don't need much thought. Especially as the white army is camped out on the queenside and black has lots of firepower ready to jump into the kingside. The Ne5 is clearly immune on account of Qg4+, Qf3+ and Bh3. So we are happily garnering pawns and building an attack. We could calculate winning lines from here, but frankly it is so obviously good for black that OTB I wouldn't see much point. Meh |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | morfishine: Which move first: Rxf4 or Nf3+ ?
I was able to follow the game-line for awhile starting with <18...Rxf4> (1) 18...Rxf4 19.gxf4 Qh4 (the critical move, tossing the Knight) 20.fxe5 Bxe5 21.f4 Bd4+ 22.Kh1 Bh3 23.Rf3 Rg8 24.Rxh3 Qxh3
25.Qb2 Qf3+ 26.Qg2 Qxg2#
*Note: Here, I drifted from White's best 20.f3 as Black's Knight is immune In the second line, Black appears to get a strong initiative starting with <18...Nf3+>
followed by 19.Kg2 and now <19...Rxf4> But since I kept finding resources for White, figured it was best to start with 18...Rxf4 ***** |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | goodevans: <Connected passed pawns on the seventh can be worth more than a rook...> Well, there's an understatement! Connected passed pawns on the sixth are very often worth more than a rook. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | devere: < abuzic: 18...Rxf4
19.gxf4 Nf3+
20.Kg2 <20.Kh1 Qh4 21.Kg2 Qh3+ 22.Kh1 Qxh2#>
20...Bg4>
Exactly right. This problem is "medium", not "very difficult". Almost anyone would play 18...Rxf4 |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | gars: Too difficult to me. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | Strelets: Play by intuition can often lead to good results. Working on the attack and studying typical themes in concrete positions can give your 'hand' the ability to reach ahead of your brain without the need to calculate too many variations. Here, with 19...Qh4 (Black can leave the knight hanging on e5 because taking it would fatally activate the dark-squared bishop), White is forced to respond with 20.f3 to stop the knight from coming to g4. 20...Qxf4 and Black's already got two pawns for the exchange and a pretty good attack thanks to the gathering of White's pieces far from the center of action. White's d-pawn is hanging to the same accursed knight and the f-pawn is in danger of dropping with check. Eventually, the black bishops will come in and have their say. Practice and positional understanding combine to obviate the need for any extensive calculation of variations. |
|
Jun-07-14
 | | kevin86: I missed this one. The attack comes soon after the sacrifice and is quick and lethal. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | patzer2: Maybe I was over confident, but at a glance I blitzed my solution to this Saturday problem with 18...Rxf4! 19. gxf4 Nf3+!  .After 18...Rxf4! 19. gxf4 (position below), Fritz 12 strongly prefers 19...Nxf3+! Laszlo Binet Tapaszto - Gyula Kluger, HUN-ch 10th Budapest 1954
click for larger viewAnalysis by Fritz 12 @ 20 depth on a 2. GHZ dual core processor: 1. (-16.48): 19...Nf3+ 20.Kg2 Bg4 21.h4 Nxh4+ 22.Kh2 Bxc3 23.Qxc3 Nf5 24.Kg1 Bh3 25.Kh1 Qh4 26.Qf6 Qxf6 27.Rg1 Qh4 28.Rg3 Bf1+ 29.Kg1 2. (-3.23): 19...Qh4 20.f3 Bh3 21.Qb2 Ng6 22.Kh1 Nxf4 23.Rg1 Rg8 24.Qc2 Bd4 25.Rxg8 Kxg8 26.Ne4 Bg2+ 27.Qxg2+ Nxg2 28.Kxg2 3. (-3.23): 19...Bh3 20.f3 Qh4 21.Qb2 Ng6 22.Kh1 Nxf4 23.Rg1 Rg8 24.Qc2 Bd4 25.Rxg8 Kxg8 26.Ne4 Bg2+ 4. (-2.99): 19...Ng4 20.Qb2 Qh4 21.f3 Bxc3 22.Qe2 Bd4+ 23.Kh1 Nf2+ 24.Rxf2 Qxf2 25.Qe4+ Kg8 26.Qg6+ Kf8 27.Qxh5 Ke7 28.c5 d5 5. (-2.47): 19...Qf6 20.Qc1 Nf3+ 21.Kg2 Nh4+ 22.Kh1 Qxc3 23.Qe3 Bg4 24.h3 Bf3+ 25.Kh2 b6 26.Nb3 Rg8 27.Rg1 d5 28.Rg3 6.  (-0.77): 19...Qf8 20.Ne2 Nf3+ 21.Kh1 Qf5 22.Rg1 Nxg1 23.Rxg1 Qh3 24.Rg2 Qf3 25.Ng1 Qxf4 26.Qb3 h4 |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | WDenayer: I don't think that this is such a great puzzle, because three other moves are also winning, although they win slower than Rxf4, which cries out to be played. White's position is a sorry picture: his knights are not working, his Queen is out of play, the rooks are not doing anything. Black will always win, as long as he does not blunder. |
|
Jun-07-14
 | | Jimfromprovidence: <patzer2> <1. (-16.48): 19...Nf3+ 20.Kg2 Bg4 21.h4 Nxh4+ 22.Kh2 Bxc3 23.Qxc3 Nf5 24.Kg1 Bh3 25.Kh1 Qh4 26.Qf6 Qxf6 27.Rg1 Qh4 28.Rg3 Bf1+ 29.Kg1> Position after 21 h4.
click for larger viewTempting here is 21 Qxh4!? but white thinks he has a fighting chance after 22 Rh1. 
click for larger viewSo the side puzzle is to show how black wins from here without retreating the queen. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | Rama: I had to go to the game here and view the posish from black's perspective, then it was instantly clear. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | dfcx: I got
18... Rxf4 19. gxf4 Qh4
white can't take the knight with 20. fxe5?? Qg4+ 21. Kh1 Qf3+ 22. Kg1 Bh3 and mate next.I do not see any good defense for white after 19...Qh4. Maybe
A. 20. f3 Qxf4 21. Ne4 Nxf3+ 22. Rxf3 Qxf3 23. Rf1 Bd4+ 24. Nf2 Bh3 |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | abuzic: After 18...Rxf4 19.gxf4 Nf3+ 20.Kg2 Bg4 21.Nxh4+ if black plays 21...Qxh4 then 22.Rh1 is obligatoy and white has many choices like 22...Qe7, ...Qd8 or ...Qf6, but the best is 22...Nh2 23.Rxh2 <23.Kg1 Bh3>; 23...Bf3+ 24.Kxf3 Qg4+ <24...Qxh2? 25.Ne4 Qh3+ 26.Ke2 and black's attack is spoiled> 25.Ke3 <23.Ke4 Re8#> 25...Bxc3 <25...Re8+? loses after 26.Ne4> 26.Qxc3 Re8+, and white has to give the Q to avoid mate 27.Qe5 dxe5. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | Conrad93: 18...Rxf4 19. gxf4 Qh4 and it's game over.
The rest isn't really necessary to analyze. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | Conrad93: This puzzle is a little too easy for three stars. |
|
| Jun-07-14 | | abuzic: After 18...Rxf4 19.gxf4 Qh4 white has some counter play with 20.f3 Qxf4 21.Qb2, but still black dominates after 21...Nxf3+ 22.Kh1 Bxc3 23.Qg2 Bg4 24.Nxb7 Rf8 |
|
Jun-07-14
 | | agb2002: Black has the bishop pair for a bishop, a knight and a pawn. The first idea that comes to mind is 18... Rxf4 (weakening the castle) 19.gxf4 Nf3+ (trying to extract the king; 19... Nd2 recovers the exchange but looks weaker) 20.Kg2 (20.Kh1 Qh4 21.Kg2 Qg4+ 22.Kh1 Qh3 and 23... Qxh2#) 20... Bd4 (cuts the flight via e3 and opens the g-file): A) 21.Kxf3 Bg4+
A.1) 22.Ke4 Qf6 23.Nxc6 (due to 23... Re8#; 23.f5 Qe4#) 23... bxc6 followed by ... Re8#. 24.Qxa7+ goes nowhere due to 24... Bxa7. A.2) 22.Kg3 Qg8
A.2.a) 23.Rg1 Bd1+ 24.Kh3 (24.Kh4 Qxg1 and mate next) 24... Qxg1 25.f3 (25.N(R)xd1 Qg4#) 25... Qf1+ 26.Kh4 (26.Kg3 Bf2#) 26... Bf2+ 27.Kxh5 Qh3#. A.2.b) 23.Ne4 (to block the g-file) 23... Be2+ 24.Ng5+ (else mate in one) 24... hxg5 25.f5 (preventing 25... Qe6 and 25... gxf4+) 25... Qc8 followed by ... Qxf5 with a winning attack. A.3) 22.Kg2 Qg8 23.Rg1 (23.Ne4 Bf3+ and mate next) 23... Be2+ 24.Kh3 Qe6+ and mate soon. B) 21.Ne2 Qh4
B.1) 22.Kxf3 Bg4+ 23.Kg2 (23.Ke4 Re8+ 24.Kxd4 Qf6#) 23... Qh3+ 24.Kg1 Bf3 and mate next. B.2) 22.Nxd4 Qh3+ 23.Kh1 Qxh2#.
C) 21.Ne4 Qh4 looks similar to previous lines.
D) 21.Rfd1 Qh4 and mate soon (threatens ... Qxf2+ and ... Qh3+). E) 21.Rh1 Qh4 and mate soon. |
|
Jun-07-14
| | agb2002: <Jimfromprovidence> Since 22... Ne1+ 23.Rbxe1 looks losing for Black, the only option I can find is 22... Nh2, threatening mate in two. A sample line could be 23.Rxh2 Bf3+ 24.Kxf3
(24.Kg1 Qg4+ 25.Kf1 Bxc3 26.Qxc3 Re8 looks winning in spite of the rook deficit) 24... Qg4+ 25.Ke3
(25.Ke4 Re8#)
25... Bxc3
(to avoid Ne4 and to eliminate the defender of e2, an entry point) 26.Qxc3
(26.d4 Re8+ 27.Kd3 Qf3+ and the attack seems to win)
26... Re8+ 27.Kd2
(27.Kd4 Qg7#)
27... Re2+ 28.Kd1
(28.Kc1 Qg1+ 29.Qe1 Qxe1#)
28... Rxf2+ and mate in two. |
|
Jun-07-14
| | Jimfromprovidence: <agb2002> and <abuzic>. Thanks for playing along. After 18,...Rxf4 19 gxf4 Nf3+ 20 Kg2 Bg4 21 h4 Qxh4 22 Rh1, then the interference move 22...Nh2, below, does indeed win. The threat is 23...Qh3+ with mate next move. 
click for larger viewAfter 23 Rxh2 Bf3+ 24 Kxf3 Qg4+ 25 Ke3 here is the position. 
click for larger view Black is down a rook and piece but is in total control. The key move is as already stated 25...Bxc3, threatening 26...Re8#. 
click for larger viewAfter the forced 26 Qxc3 then 26...Re8+ wins the queen and soon the game. |
|
Jun-07-14
 | | PawnSac: < Strelets: Play by intuition can often lead to good results. > yes, the position is screaming out for RxN.. BUT OTB at higher levels of play one must back up intuition with some concrete thinking. There must be at least a few move continuation with very strong continuation that "looks winning" < Strelets:
Here, with 19...Qh4 (Black can leave the knight hanging on e5 because taking it would fatally activate the dark-squared bishop), > no forget the dark squares..
If 20. fxe5 Qg4+ 21. Kh1 Qf3+ 22. Kg1 Bh3 puts whites lights out. the knight is immune because of mate in 3
that is why white played f3 on the next move...
to keep the Q out of g4 |
|
| Jun-08-14 | | TheBish: L Binet Tapaszto vs G Kluger, 1954 Black to play (18...?) "Very Difficult"
This is definitely tougher than last Saturday's! What jumped out at me right away is 18...Rxf4 19. gxf4 Nf3+ 20. Kg2 (not 20. Kh1 Qh4 21. Kg2 Qh3+ 22. Kh1 Qxh2#), but this is the point in the game that separates "the men from the boys", which is a far from appropriate use of this expression for a "combination" of reasons, I know! But you get my meaning. (Inappropriate because many boys are masters, as are many girls and women!) More apt would be the point in the game which separates masters from non-masters, although I'm sure there are a few non-masters who will solve this. At this point I'm thinking the right way is 20...Bg4 (preparing 21...Qh4), but after 21. h3 Qh4 22. Rh1 (not 22. hxg4 Qxg4+ 23. Kh1 Qh3#) it's a little unclear, mainly because I'm doing this in my head! But I think in a tournament game I would go ahead and play 18...Rxf4! just on principle (weakening the already weak king even further) and then work out the rest as I went along, basically getting the rest of the pieces developed and attacking as quickly as possible. A key here is getting the remaining rook to e8 to cut off the king from escaping. Out of time, time to see the game...
~~~ Wow, didn't even consider 20...Qh4, attacking with the queen before checking with the knight. Actually, I think it was one of my candidate moves, but I forgot to look at it! So this is a lesson for me (and maybe others): select your candidate moves (at different points in the analysis) and then remember to evaluate each one as you are working out the variations. Had I looked at 20...Qh4!, I would have found the simple mate after 21. fxe5 Qg4+ 22. Kh1 Qf3+ 23. Kg1 Bh3, with no way to stop 24...Qg2#. |
|
| Jun-08-14 | | TheBish: <Conrad93: 18...Rxf4 19. gxf4 Qh4 and it's game over. The rest isn't really necessary to analyze.
This puzzle is a little too easy for three stars.> Regarding "the rest isn't really necessary to analyze" -- First of all, that sounds like a cop-out to me. You can't really prove you solved the puzzle if you stop before looking at possible defenses, even if the position looks bad for the losing side. If you don't at least look for the best possible defense, you could be missing something important. Secondly, chess is all about analysis! Unless the position is clearly winning for one side (like a piece ahead or a move or two away from mate), it's worth analyzing. Regarding "this puzzle is a little too easy for three stars" -- Actually, it was 3.5 stars. And you didn't prove it was easy, because you didn't show any variations! Try giving several variations (or even a couple) by working it out in your head without moving pieces (like you would have to do in a tournament game), like many of us do, and I think you'll find the difficulty for this to be at least 3 stars. |
|
Jun-08-14
 | | Richard Taylor: I finally decided that the line that Kommodo later endorsed of Nf3+ then Rx on f4 then Bg4 would be the easiest and most effective win and it is but the line chosen by Black here was ok except that Nf3 on the second move really shuts White down. But W was in a bad way as long as Black could bring his c8 Q or Q's Bishop and the R on a8 and his Queen into the circus... |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 18...Rxf4