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| Jul-04-08 | | blue wave:  Thanks for the feedback Eyal. The move of g4 is not what I'm afraid of as it does weaken the White kings position a little. White's possible strategy of moving the knight to e5, is what I think we should be concerned about. The move of h5 is an attempt try to prevent Ng4, but as this line shows White can still get his knight to e5 if he really wants to. Personally as White I think that I'd rather have a knight on e5, supported by a Queen and rook to follow. I don't think the weakening of the kings position is too bad for White? But I think peices planted at e5 will exert a strong influence into a possible endgame. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | ronpaz1: as a result of the extensive work which done by the team, I changed my mind toward 21...Ba4. the main advantage of it is not preventing a4 but forcing White Rook to bad place. 21...Nf7 could be better if we will find variants, with 21...Ba4, that will prove that e6 weakness or lack of e5 threat are significance. so far I didn't saw such a variant |
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| Jul-04-08 | | MarkThornton: After <21...Ba4>, I've been worrying about the Rf2-e2 manoeuvre for White. But is there anything wrong with this line: <21...Ba4 22. Ra2 (or 22. Rc1) 22...Nf7 23. Rf2 N7d6 24. Re2 <Rge7> 
click for larger viewIf <25. Nf2>, then <25...Kg7> defends the sensitive f6 square. Have we all been so in love with the idea of a Rook on g7 that we have missed the simplest defence of e6? Or is there something wrong with this line that I haven't spotted? |
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| Jul-04-08 | | Eyal: <MarkThornton: After <21...Ba4>, I've been worrying about the Rf2-e2 manoeuvre for White. But is there anything wrong with this line: <21...Ba4 22. Ra2 (or 22. Rc1) 22...Nf7 23. Rf2 N7d6 24. Re2 <Rge7>> Have we all been so in love with the idea of a Rook on g7 that we have missed the simplest defence of e6? Or is there something wrong with this line that I haven't spotted?> Possibly 25.g4 Ng7, and our pieces don't seem to be so well-coordinated; perhaps White can take immediate advantage of that by 26.Qh4 Nf7 27.Qf6, and now we might be reduced to something like 27...Nh8 (27...Kh7? 28.f5!). It's a pity to give up the Rg7/Qd8 setup if we don't really have to; I've already made 2 rather lengthy posts on pp.110-111 about why I think the line <21...Ba4 22.Ra2 Nf7 23.Rf2 Qd8 24.Re2 Bd7> should be ok for us. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | hoodrobin:  <The Chess Express> You're doing the great job. Sorry for typo. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | blue wave: <21...Ba4 22.Nf2 Qd8 23.Ng4 g5 Black is O.K.> I think you missed Nf7 in this line Ronpaz1 ;) |
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| Jul-04-08 | | MarkThornton: I have changed my vote from <21...Nf7> to <21...Ba4>. The reason is that I thnk I have solved the problem of the Rf2-e2 plan. After <21...Ba4>:
A) <22. Rc1> Nf7 23. Rf2 <Bd7!> 24. Ra1 N7d6 25. Re2 Qd8 We have made the Bd7 retreat without losing a tempo. The Re2 is now "biting on granite". B) <22. Ra2> Nf7 23. Rf2 N7d6 24. Re2 <Qb6!> Now we have: B1) <25. Bc1> Qb1! 26. Rb2 Qa1 Surprisingly, the Queen is safe on a1, and is a real nuisance to White. If 27. Rb4 Bb5 and 28...a5 pushes the rook back to b2. If 27. Rxe6 Rxe6 28. Qxe6+ Kh7 29. Qe1 Re7 with excellent compensation for the pawn. B2) <25. Rxe6> Rxe6 26. Qxe6+ Kh7 and now: B21) <27. Qe1> Re7 28. Q moves Ne4 with good compensation for our pawn. B22) <27. Ra1> Re7 28. Qxd5 Bc6 29. Qc5 Qb2 
click for larger viewWhite, to move, is in real trouble here, e.g.
B221) <30. Rf1> Bxf3 31. Rxf3 Qxc2 and the Bd2 drops. B222) <30. Rc1> Bxf3 31. gxf3 Re2 32. Qc7+ Ng7 33. Qxd6 Rxd2 34. Rf1 Qxc2
35. Rf2 Rxf2 36. Nxc2 Qxc3 with a much better endgame. Our passed c-pawn will be very dangerous. B3) <25. Nf2> Rge7 and ...Kg7, with an equal game. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | ravel5184: Advantages to Ba4:
-Gets bishop outside Pawn chain
-Attacks weak c2-Pawn
-Makes way for the g7-Rook to transfer to the queenside
-Gains tempo because of attack on c2-Pawn
Disadvantages to Ba4:
-Releases pressure on a3-Pawn
-Moves away from defense of e6-Pawn (although it is already well defended) Advantages to Nf7:
-Prepares to go to e4 attacking c3
Disadvantages to Nf7:
-Immobilizes g7-Rook
-Removes defender of e6-Pawn
-When going to e4 the other Knight will have to go to f6 to defend the square adequately Am I missing something? |
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| Jul-04-08 | | blue wave: Thanks for all the work again, the resource of Qb6! is very interesting. I had looked at the move but didn't realize just how useful it could be..inyour last line I have some resevations about the position we arrive at. B3) 22.Ra2 Nf7 23.Rf2 N7d6 24.Re2 Qb6! 25.Nf2 Rge7
click for larger view26.g4 how do we best continue?
A) 26..Nh4 27.Bh1 (27.Bxd5? exd5 28.Rxe7 Nf3+!) the knight has no escape square so g5 is forced.
27..g5 28.fxg5 hxg5 29.Bxg5 Rh7 30.Rxe6 and black is in trouble B)26..Ng7 27.Bxd5! exd5? 28.Rxe7 Rxe7 30.Qxe7 and black is lost. C)26..Ng7 27.Bxd5! Bc6 28.Be4 Nxe4 29.Nxe4 Bxe4 30.Rxe4 and blacks defense becomes hopelessly passive... |
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| Jul-04-08 | | The Chess Express: One last idea 21. Ba4 22. Rc1 |
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| Jul-04-08 | | ravel5184: I'm just saying, if we keep preparing for 21 ... Nf7 and Team Black doesn't play it, all our analysis would be for naught! |
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| Jul-04-08 | | ravel5184: ravel5184 CC chessforum |
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| Jul-04-08 | | zanshin: <ravel5184> Please don't post analysis of this game in your personal forum. Unlike in the GM games, opposing team members can read your forum. |
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Jul-04-08
 | | Chessgames Challenge:
21...Ba4
FINAL VOTE RESULTS:
| 21...Ba4 |
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28 | votes |
(63.6%) |
| 21...Nf7 |
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13 | votes |
(29.5%) |
| 21...b5 |
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2 | votes |
(4.5%) |
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total # of votes: 44
draw requests: 4 (9.1%)
click for larger view
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Jul-04-08
| | Chessgames Challenge:
21...Ba4
click for larger view
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| Jul-04-08 | | TommyC: Hi team. I think black has made an inaccuracy by playing this move now, when we can easily defend both of our particularly vulnerable queenside pawns simply and efficiently with <22.Ra2>. In any tactical lines that follow, our job has just become easier too, because we don't need to worry about the interjection of ..Ba4 or ..Qa4 in any of the lines. The bishop is on a4, and that's it. So my vote is for 22.Ra2, after which I think our job should be once again to seek appropriate play on the kingside. What exactly will of course depend on black, but my hunch is that *slowly* preparing g4 will be the way to go. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | Eyal: <MarkThornton: <22. Rc1> Nf7 23. Rf2 <Bd7!> 24. Ra1 N7d6 25. Re2 Qd8 We have made the Bd7 retreat without losing a tempo. The Re2 is now "biting on granite".> Actually, it's not necessary for White to defend a3 on move 24, since after Qxa3 there's Ra1-Rxa7. However, it's true that basically we don't have to fear retreating with the bishop to d7 after playing it to a4 in case White goes for the Re2-f2 maneuver - because then the white rook on e2 becomes somewhat misplaced, and that compensates for the apparent time-waste of the bishop's maneuver. This point is valid in case of <22.Ra2> as well, which is one of the reasons I suggested the line involving Qd8 & Bd7 mentioned in my previous post. <B3) 22.Ra2 Nf7 23.Rf2 N7d6 24.Re2 Qb6 25.Nf2 Rge7 and ...Kg7 with an equal game> 26.Ng4 Kg7 27.Ne5:
click for larger view I think White has actually a dominating position here. It's true that we've managed to defend e6, but what's next? With our rook on e7 and queen on b6 we've deprived ourselves of any real possibility of K side play that the Rg7/Qd8 formation gives us. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | ravel5184: What did I tell you all?
22. Rc1 for me |
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| Jul-04-08 | | hms123: I am not supposed to be checking in but I couldn't take it any more! there is a chess set at the B&B we are staying at. Anyway, I am still liking <g4> at this point. If <g5> then we play <fxg5>. We also still have the chance to play <Qc1> or even <Qh4> if the BN moves after g5. No vote yet. I will be back Sunday. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | MarkThornton: bluewave: <A) 26..Nh4 27.Bh1 (27.Bxd5? exd5 28.Rxe7 Nf3+!) the knight has no escape square> I think we may have time to manufacture one, due to the idea of <27...h5>, when we have: A) <28. Nd1> hxg4 29. Qxh4 Qb1 winning material. (I'm not sure about the move order here: 28...Qb1 29. Rb2 Qa1 is also attractive.) B) <28. Nh3> hxg4 29. Qxh4? [29. Ng5! is best] 29....Qb1+ C) <28. h3> hxg4 29. hxg4 Bd7 and 30...Rh7, saving the knight. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | MarkThornton: <Eyal>: <B3) 22.Ra2 Nf7 23.Rf2 N7d6 24.Re2 Qb6 25.Nf2 Rge7 26.Ng4 Kg7 27.Ne5> I think White has actually a dominating position here. > I haven't done much work on this line, but here are some half-formed ideas: I was hoping to restrain White on the K-side with ...h5, ...Rh8, ....Rh6. My hope (perhaps impractical) is that we can create a position where he cannot organise an effective g4, in which case he will have to mark time. This would give us the chance to slowly make progress on the Q-side. An important part in this plan is played by the Ne5 and the Nd6. So long as we play with care, the only move the Ne5 will have is Nf3, when we can block the e-file (perhaps only for a move or two) with ...Ne4. In essence, I am banking on the Ne5 looking much better than it actually is. If we can successfully play around it, then it just gets in the way of the heavy pieces on the e-file. But I am not sure this is feasible. A more thorough analysis may establish that this is an idle dream. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | hoodrobin: The "surprise law" has a weak point: not always there are two good moves. Now we could have: 22.Ra2 22.Qc1 22.Rc1 and 22.g4 (just brainstorming). |
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| Jul-04-08 | | benjinathan: I think we may be on to something: the Geoge Katsanza strategy: whatever we think the best move is for them, they will do the opposite. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | acirce: Ra2 makes the most sense to me, intuitively, now or after g4. Rc1 seems awfully passive; from a2 it can at least go to b2. |
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| Jul-04-08 | | hoodrobin: I think our a-Rook does a good work on the queenside, while all our other men do a good actual or future job just where they are, for now. I don't like much Rc1 so I'm now preferring 22.Ra2. |
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