|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7 OF 7 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Apr-20-09 | | AnalyzeThis: In some lines, white can keep the black bishop in a useless area of the board a bit longer, giving him the necessary move or two to maneuver. A sample line is 46. Qd2 Kb7 47. Nc3 h4 48. Kb3 a4+ 49. Nxa4 Qa7 50. Nb2 Kb6 (not 50....Bh2 because of 51. a4 and 52. a5) 51. Nd3 
click for larger viewThe point of this move order is that now something like ...Bh2 can be met with Nf2 from white and the horse is out of the barn via g4. Another point is that after 51....Qa8, white wins with the beautiful 52. Nxe5 dxe5 53. d6. So, black makes his last stand with 51.... Qa5, and resigns after 52. Qxa5+ Kxa5 53. Kc2 Kb6 54. Kd1 Ka5 55. Ke2 Kb6 56. Nc1 |
|
| Apr-20-09 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: I agree with you that your diagrammed position is won for white. Here is the critical position in your line:
click for larger viewI should have said directly in earlier posts that I recommend a4+ only when black can get his queen to a5. In this position, I recommend 48... Bh2 to threaten Bg1 and get the bishop to e3 or d4 as needed. If 49.Qe1 Bg3 repeats moves OR the White Q has to abandon the e1-a5 diagonal.
So, for instance, if 48...Bh2 49.Qd1 then 49...a4+ 50.Kxa5 (or Nxa4 Qa5) Qh7+ 51.Kb3 Qa5 In a K+B versus K+N ending, black has to be able to play Bd4 in response to Nd3 to guard f2 and e5. It's a very fine line black has to walk, but I believe the defense is tenable. |
|
| Apr-20-09 | | Chesstalesfan: I cant believe it! No conclusion on this game yet. I enjoy it very much. La Titanomachie entre AnalyzeThis et CHESSTTCAMPS pas encore finie!
Encore , donc. |
|
| Apr-20-09 | | AnalyzeThis: ChessTTCamps - a sample line is:
46. Qd2 Kb7 47. Nc3 h4 48. Kb3 Bh2 49. Ne2 Bg3 50. Ka4 Qa7 51. Nc1 Kb6 52. Nd3 
click for larger viewThis is more or less the same position, just that white hasn't gotten around to capturing the dead a5 pawn yet. Play might continue:
52....Kb7 53. Qxa5 Qxa5+ 54. Kxa5 Ka7 55. b6+ cxb6+ 56. Kb5 Kb7 57. a4 Bh2 58. Nf2 Black resigns 
click for larger viewAs usual, any time white answers ...Bh2 with Nf2, the game is basically over. |
|
Apr-20-09
 | | OBIT: <Chesstalesfan>Hey, I realize you're only reading the comments from the two main protagonists here, but I'll give you two conclusions: (1) Instead of 42. axb5?, White has a clear win after 42. cxb5! (2) The puzzle position is drawn. If the queen sac is declined, Black maintains a blockade with the following plan: Keep the bishop on the g3/e1 diagonal - don't go to h2 unless you are sure you can get back. Keep the king on a7 or b7. This ensures the White king can get no further than a5. Note the Black pawn on c7 is well posted, preventing a pawn break by b6. Keep the queen on b6. So long as the bishop stays on the g3/e1 diagonal, the queen can't be captured in a way that allows White to break through. The queen on b6 also stops other tactical shots, such as the knight sac on e4 to allow the White d-pawn to advance. Trade queens if offered. In the K+N vs K+B ending, "letting the horse out of the barn" is not a big deal, as all the knight can do is capture the g-pawn, which is unimportant. (Like, how are you going to get that extra pawn on g2 moving?) Assuming Black doesn't fall for a tactical shot, White has to capture the a-pawn and advance it to win. However, Black should be able to draw the K+B vs K+N by keeping the White king out. (Zugzwang is clearly not possible, as the bishop can always make moves along the e1/g3 diagonal.) With the Black king on a7 or b7 and the Black bishop able to play Be1+ if the White king goes to a5, White can't push any pawns through. |
|
| Apr-20-09 | | AnalyzeThis: Obit, your summary is completely wrong. Let's follow your strategy, and watch it lose. 45. Qd2 Kb7 46. Nc3 h4 47. Kb3 Ka7 48. Ka4 Kb7 49. Ne2 Ka7 50. Nc1 Kb7 51. Nd3 Ka7 
click for larger view52. Qxa5+ and now:
A) 52.... Qxa5+ 53. Kxa5 Kb7 54. b6 cxb6+ 55. Kb5 1-0 B) 52.... Kb7 53. Qd2 Ka7 54. Kb3 Kb7 54. a4 Ka7 55. a5 1-0 C) 52... Kb7 53. Qd2 Qa7+ 54. Kb3 Kb6 55. Nxe5!! 1-0 Position after 55. Nxe5 in Line C:
click for larger view |
|
Apr-20-09
| | OBIT: Eh, not so fast... if I see the White knight has gone to d3, taking away Be1, I think it is time to reposition the bishop. So, 51...Bh2 instead. Then if 52. Qxa5 Qxa5 53. Kxa5 Bg1 54. b6 cxb6 55. Kb5 Bd4 and I still think Black is OK. Also, 52. Nf2 Bg1 53. Ng4 Bd4 54. Qxa5 Qxa5 55. Kxa5 Bc3+ looks like a draw to me, as I don't think the knight can do any real damage. |
|
| Apr-20-09 | | AnalyzeThis: White can refrain from taking the a5 pawn. It's not going anywhere anyway and serves a useful purpose by preventing the black queen from launching counterplay. On the other hand, that little pawn on g5 is actually pretty important, because with the bishop on d4, if that pawn isn't there, Qe1 and Qxh4 happens. Therefore:
45. Qd2 Kb7 46. Nc3 h4 47. Kb3 Ka7 48. Ka4 Kb7 49. Ne2 Ka7 50. Nc1 Kb7 51. Nd3 Bh2 
click for larger view52. Nf2 Bg1 53. Ng4 Bd4 54. Nf6
click for larger viewThe plan is: Nh7 and Nxg5, followed by Qe1 and Qxh4. Later, when white gets bored, he maneuvers his men around and captures on a5. While his pawns are being munched, what exactly does black do to stop this? |
|
Apr-20-09
| | OBIT: Oh, sorry... if 52. Nf2, the bishop has to go back to g3. The active knight is more dangerous if the queens are still on the board, so the bishop has to stay within reach of the e1/g3 diagonal. So, 52. Nf2 Bg3 53. Ng4 Ka7, and now...? If 54. Qxa5+ Qxa5 55. Kxa5, and this time Black has that crucial bishop check on e1. Instead of 54. Qxa5+, White can try some knight maneuver, of course, but I still don't see anything more than grabbing the g-pawn, which looks harmless so long as the bishop stays on e1/g3. |
|
| Apr-20-09 | | Chesstalesfan: <OBIT> Of course I am reading all posts in this extraordinary sequence of comments. And I thank you very much for having cared to answer to me. So now I think I know how it is. |
|
| Apr-21-09 | | AnalyzeThis: It doesn't work, OBIT, because the knight can first take the pawn on g5, then go to f5. In this position, the knight can either capture the bishop, creating an entry way for the white queen, or capture the h4 pawn if the bishop moves. A sample line is:
click for larger view52....Bg3 53. Ng4 Ka7 54. Nf6 Kb7 55. Nh7 Ka7 56. Nxg5 Kb7 57. Nf7 Qa7 58. Nh6 Qa8 59. Nf5 
click for larger viewThere are just too many holes in the dam for black. Among other things, if the black queen leaves the defense of the king for too long, the king will get checkmated by the action of Queen and Knight. |
|
Apr-21-09
| | OBIT: Yep... this final position with the knight on f5 seems to finally break my attempt at a blockade. I also spent some time looking at other options earlier, but none of them seem sufficient. So, unless someone else comes forward with an ingenious new idea, I think we have to conclude that with best play the puzzle position is a win for White (although 42. cxb5! was a heckuva lot easier). Nice job of analysis, <Analyze This>! |
|
| Apr-21-09 | | AnalyzeThis: Hey, thanks OBIT. You and the other contributed some key ideas... I know I learned a lot from the analysis.... cheers! |
|
| Apr-22-09 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: <Analyze This> Sorry I had to drop out of the discussion for a couple of days to attend to other matters. I've had a chance to review your posts and I now agree that your conclusion that the puzzle position is a win for white with accurate play is correct. I'm sure that the correct line is in fact Qd2 followed by N-c3-e2. (The earlier posts with Nb2 - that may have come from other posters - did not impress me.) When I first saw 46. Qd2 Kb7 47. Nc3 h4 48. Kb3 Bh2 49. Ne2 Bg3 50. Ka4, I thought black could meet it with 50....Bf2, but I'd overlooked 51.Nxf4. Then I tried an immediate 46.Qd2 Bh2, but saw that it lost to 47.Nxb6 cxb6 48.g4. If black can improve the mobility of either the queen (by getting it to a5) or the bishop (by getting it safely to the g1 diagonal, the game would be drawn - but black can't. But you have to admit that 46...Qb6 is a good swindle that would work against most human players and all the chess engines out there now. Anyway, good discussion and good analysis. Thanks! |
|
| Apr-25-09 | | vindaloo: In several lines black loses because he has given white an entry point on the kingside. One example is from one of AnalyzeThis's excellent posts: <<So, black makes his last stand with 51.... Qa5, and resigns after 52. Qxa5+ Kxa5 53. Kc2 Kb6 54. Kd1 Ka5 55. Ke2 Kb6 56. Nc1>> With the pawn on h5 black could've safely moved his bishop. Of course, at some point in some other line white could play h3-h4 himself and enter via h3 so black must be careful. However h4 is playable once the bishop has entered the white position and keeps active. One example line I can think of is: 46.Qd2 Qa7 (Kb7 might work just as well) 47.Kb3 (47.Nc3 a4 48.Qc2 Qa5 49.Nxa4 Be1 50.Nb2 Bc3 51.Qa4 Qxa4 52.Nxa4 Bd4 53.b6 cxb6 54.Nxb6+ Kc7 55.Na4 h4) 47...Kb7 48.Nb2 (b6 is cool but no cigar) 48...a4+! (not Qa8 and white reaches his optimal postion after Ka4 as mentioned) 49.Nxa4 Qa8 50.Nb2 Kb6 51.Nd3 Qa5 (Bh2) 52.Qxa4+ Kxa5 53.Kc2 Kb6 (Bh2) 54.Nc1 Be1 55.Nb3 
click for larger viewNow white is threating things on both flanks so black must act. 55...h4! 56.a4 Bb4 57.Nc1 (57.Kd1 Bc3!) 57...Ka5 58.Nd3 Kxa4 59.Nf2 Ba5 60.Ng4 Kb4 61.Kd3 Kb3 62.Nf6 Kb2 with unexpected counter-play. |
|
| Apr-26-09 | | AnalyzeThis: Well, I'll have to look at this closely. I suspect that vindaloo is a very strong player. |
|
| Apr-26-09 | | SamAtoms1980: I think I'll just sing the song
<All in all you're just a / nother brick in the wall> <All in all, you're just a / nother brick in the WALL> |
|
Apr-27-09
 | | Jimfromprovidence: <Vindaloo> <46.Qd2 Qa7 (Kb7 might work just as well) 47.Kb3 (47.Nc3 a4 48.Qc2 Qa5 49.Nxa4 Be1 50.Nb2 Bc3 51.Qa4 Qxa4 52.Nxa4 Bd4 53.b6 cxb6 54.Nxb6+ Kc7 55.Na4 h4) 47...Kb7 48.Nb2 (b6 is cool but no cigar) 48...a4+! (not Qa8 and white reaches his optimal postion after Ka4 as mentioned) 49.Nxa4 Qa8 50.Nb2 Kb6 51.Nd3 Qa5 (Bh2) 52.Qxa4+ Kxa5 53.Kc2 Kb6 (Bh2) 54.Nc1 Be1 55.Nb3 > After 46. Qd2 Qa7 47. Kb3 Kb7 48. Nb2 a4+ 49. Nxa4 Qa8, I like the invading move 50 Nxc5+?!
click for larger viewNow, after 50….dxc5 51 d6 Qd8 52 Qd5+ Kb8 53 d7, white has the pressure fully on.
click for larger viewCan't say if it wins but this is the direction I'd go in. |
|
| Apr-27-09 | | vindaloo: Great find <Jimfromprovidence>! Without looking at things closely I hope black can improve his waiting move (49...Qa8) with 49...Bh4. Then 50.Nb2 Kb6 51.Nd3 Qa5 should lead to my main line above. Of course I had to make sure 52.Qd1 Kb7 53.Nxc5 didn't work this time... |
|
Apr-28-09
| | Jimfromprovidence: <vindaloo> <Without looking at things closely I hope black can improve his waiting move (49...Qa8) with 49...Bh4. Then 50.Nb2 Kb6 51.Nd3 Qa5 should lead to my main line above. Of course I had to make sure 52.Qd1 Kb7 53.Nxc5 didn't work this time...> Yeah, I can still break through with 53 Nxc5 or Nxe5 but I can't get the passed pawn this time. I got nothing else. |
|
| May-11-09 | | zanshin: In Modern Chess Analysis by Robin Smith (2004)
<After 46.Nxb6+?>
<To quote Emms in "The Most Amazing Chess Moves of All Time": With a little more thought, White might have seen that he should instead go for the systematic attack on the a5-pawn: for example, 46.Qd2 Qa7 47.Kb3 Kb7 48.Nb2 Kb6 49.Ka4! Bh2 50.Nd3> 
click for larger viewAnd White should win easily after 51.Nc1 and 52.Nb3 |
|
| May-12-09 | | Dr. J: <zanshin: And White should win easily after 51.Nc1 and 52.Nb3> If you read the previous 7 pages of comments, you will see that, yes, this is won, and no, it's anything but easy. |
|
| May-12-09 | | zanshin: <Dr. J: <zanshin: And White should win easily after 51.Nc1 and 52.Nb3> If you read the previous 7 pages of comments, you will see that, yes, this is won, and no, it's anything but easy.> <Dr. J> I know about the earlier pages of comments - I wrote several of them. I am just paraphrasing from the book. |
|
Dec-16-11
 | | Penguincw: The white queen can not break through. |
|
| Dec-11-17 | | Kukka: If in the final position White had a light-squared bishop (in addition to the queen), it still wouldn't be a trivial win, (Qxg3 hxg3 might not do it), but Qxa5 with the king at a4 would then seem to be decisive. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7 OF 7 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
