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Judit Polgar vs Levon Aronian
7th Essent (2003), Hoogeveen NED, rd 6, Oct-18
Spanish Game: Closed. Pilnik Variation (C90)  ·  1-0

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Dec-04-08  ppeti84: oh come on, read that interwiew again, he told that women didn't born to fight, so they must change herselves to become a fighter, and it's very hard, so the most of them can't do it..by the way tell me a women, who had more elo than Aronian!you can't becouse there isn't any.So what do you talking about?And write that Aronian is not smart..I would see you play against him, or make a better iq-test than him..
Dec-04-08  blueofnoon: Your opinion is basically that if you want to refute someone's opinion in chess you must be higher rated than him or her.

Then nobody can object to Fischer or Kasparov. Very nice.

Also, top players need to be careful so that their statements are not interpreted in wrong way.

Readers of Chessbase are not supposed to spend 1 hour on that interview in order to understand what Levon "really" wanted to say.

Dec-04-08  Open Defence: <I would see you play against him, or make a better iq-test than him..> to quote a famous movie character

"Stupid is as stupid does"

Dec-04-08  adair10: <blueofnoon:> <Being a great chess player does not necessarily mean he or she is a smart person.>

More relevant sentence in this case would be "Being a great chess player does not necessarily mean he or she is <politically correct person>."

Aronian did not say that women are stupid or anything like that, but said highest level of chess requires aggressiveness that they usually lack... In general... Means, there can be Polgar, Koneru and others, but statistically much less than top men, because statistically women are less aggressive (thankfully!). Georgia over the decades was a country with unusually high interest for specifically women chess thanks to Gaprindashvili, Chiburdanidze and others. Yet, inspite of tremendous successes they have achieved at women chess stage, no Polgar caliber players were produced.

You can agree or not with Aronian's opinion based on aggressiveness argument, but I don't see him being moron or unrespectful.

Dec-04-08  Vishy but not Anand: < khursh: <<Vishy but not Anand:> The headline was

"I have a lot of blood in my brain" Levon Aronjan explains why chess is war and not something for women>

Actually you put headline title and article title together. The overall headline - which many readers read without clicking overall article - is:>

That is not what you referred into your first message, it is clear that you mentioned "chessbase put"...you should not deny it, here is the exact excerpt of your comment...

< chessbase put <women can't play chess> as headline, which is understandable for a chess tabloid magazine. And when you read article, you enjoy Aronian and understand the meaning.>>

And now atleast you probably read it finally.

<I didn't give citations, but was explaining paradox in argumentation. Some people read only words, but the life is not lineal. Here are quotes on thinking <Yes, I know there is a myth that chess is a very logical game. But chess is full of spontaneous decisions and determination. With chess you cannot even practice logical thinking. Many people also believe that chess and mathematics are closely connected. But we chess players are not necessarily good at maths.>>

Chess is a combination of logical thinking which is use for spontaneous decisions and with that logic, the process of "if-then" (if you move this piece then I will move this one and so on...)and once the decision is made the determination or will to win is attached with it. Math that taught in the school is not necessary to be a good chessplayer but chess requires "calculation" which means to ascertain by computing. "If" there is a Computing "then" there is atleast an Arithmetic involved. This is what Aronian had missed. I am sure that chessplayers is not necessarily good in Math taught is school (imagine a chessplayer that don't give enough attention in school study and put all his effort in chess). In Algebra, if he doesn't know the formula or method of how to solve a math problem, he can never answer the problem

In human Chess playing, from the opening which is normally done through home preparation these days except for the first move, starts from intuition. Then the logic starts that "if" your opponent move this, "then" you have several move options. There will be a process of elimination of option by calculating both moves yours and opponent moves and its outcome. The process repeats through-out the game (Intuition, logical thinking,calculating then loop).

<You started to talk about emotions as part of brain. Nothing new, but if you want to imply that math & logic are not thinking/IQ/ but emotion is, then nothing to add. >

Correction in your statement, "emotion" is never part of the brain but it is the process out from the brain (Limbic System). I think you did not read my message well, so I will repeat it again!

"Chess is a braingame, and everything else are triggered by the brains too like emotions of which generally the result of a logical appraisal of the probability that a situation will effect a positive or negative change to our physical or psychological well being."

Note that "logical appraisal" and the "probability". A logic and math are involved.

I never said that IQ is not part of the brain but anyhow, it is true that it IQ is never part of the brain but it is just a "method". Just to give you an idea "IQ is a largely effective method of ranking people according to their analytic, or "academic," intelligence". That is a limited method of measurement for how our brain works but " it is never be part of the brain as you mentioned". The main parts of the brain are (forebrain, midbrain and hindbrain) and the brain structures or parts are "Cerebrum, Cerebellum, Limbic system and Brain stem. Each of these parts have its own function.

I mentioned IQ in contrary to your comment below which is out from nowhere!

"women can't think .... since their IQ is higher"

Aronian did not say anything about Women IQ!

Dec-04-08  Vishy but not Anand: <Imagine if a person will play without any emotion like a chess machine. He/she will just program everything, update every now and then ...

<khursh> Not true, the very difference between affective and cognitive part of our brain is that affective part /Amygdala/ is responsible for decision making.>

I cannot see what is "not true" in my remarks, you just simply says that affective part is responsible for decision making. But still your statement is incorrect.

The frontal lobe is responsible for higher "cognitive functions" such as speech, problem-solving, planning, organizing, awareness, motor activity, memory storage, and intelligence. The frontal lobe is also involved in emotions and other aspects of personality.

Affective forecasting, also known as intuition or the prediction of emotion, also impacts attitude change. Research suggests that predicting emotions is an important component of decision making, "in addition" to the cognitive processes (Loewenstein, 2007). How we feel about an outcome may override purely cognitive rationales.

Affective is just "an addition" to the cognitive process but "not purely" responsible for decision making as you claimed.

<That's why computer programming on AI has developed dramatically from chess programming.>

As I said, the (forebrain) cerebrum frontal lobe is associated with reasoning, planning, parts of speech, movement, emotions, and problem solving. The limbic system often referred to as "emotional brain" that triggers our emotion on each occassion.

Without this limbic system, a person would not mind what other people says, the rest of the brain function like reasoning, planning, parts of speech, movement, and problem solving are now programmable in chess computer program. That is the big difference why a chess program these days are much better than humans because of it is lack of emotions. Computer program will never be affected or pre-occupied of the family issues, money prizes, the society, politics, etc... in other words purely focus and what is programmed them to do.

That is a big difference!!

Dec-04-08  blueofnoon: <adair10> I do not see the point of your argument.

Aronian is a top GM, and his statements has certain impact.

Of course he is entitled to say anything he likes at home or bar, but this interview can discourage prospective female chess players to get into our game.

My understanding is this was a paid interview and Aronian knew it to be published in several media.

Therfore, he should have behavied in more professional manner, cause it's not a casual talk with his friend or mom.

Dec-04-08  adair10: < blueofnoon: <adair10> I do not see the point of your argument>

The point is Aronian expressed an opinion about a subject that happens to be very touchy. These days one should carefully navigate between tight boundaries in order not to be called sexist, moron, etc. But I repeat, he did not come away as an arrogant and disrespectful.

Was he politically incorrect? maybe yes. That is fair argument to bring in, but name-calling is not fair and totally unwarranted

Dec-04-08  Vishy but not Anand: < ppeti84: oh come on, read that interwiew again, he told that women didn't born to fight, so they must change herselves to become a fighter, and it's very hard, so the most of them can't do it..by the way tell me a women, who had more elo than Aronian!you can't becouse there isn't any.>

Fischer once told he can even give a knight odd to any women and can still beat her. That was in his time, of which women can't even qualify to be a GM.

But I don't think Aronian is as capable of Fischer to speak out "women can't play chess" because he never beat Judit even once. He has a -2 score against her.

It is true that at this moment that no women has a higher elo than Aronian but it is because Judit seldom play these days unlike before. Since she got married and got two children she doesn't have enough time for chess. When Judit was very active in chess, she has a higher rating than Aronian and that is just a fact.

Aronian is not just smart but he is very smart. He will never be in top ten if he is not and no one can deny it. But sometimes ego of the chessplayers are way far than their actual chess capabilities.

Dec-05-08  Ladolcevita: What does the word "woman"and"man"mean??
When we look at the history,we know it means two different natural side of creatures. Nowadays,sexual line is getting misty,but it doesnt mean we can say woman are born to love fight and love thinking,generally,and totally inverse the truth--well,it is simply clear and distinctive that driven by the female hormone,women have an overall trend for something,like romance,flowers,vanity...Can you deny this?....---- So i think these giants are just telling a fact that which two things are matched well,and which two things have an antinomy,albeit with time gliding forwards,we actually dont know what would happen,how many geniuses would be born as a woman chess player,and whether the woman fashion would cater for chess. Why people always get annoyed when someone made such statement?Human beings are of classes in different categories and diversity in different senses,but when god shuts one door,he also opens a window,right?History is made by human,if the god is traditionally called "He",then the women should think why there is no women creating a religion to name the god"she",and if women cant,then its just how the history goes,for instance,women can take care of herselves better than men,so they simultaneously abandon the desire for creating a religion.That cant be any conspiracies.If you change your view,you would find women and men deserves everything they received nowadays,whether its good or bad.
Dec-05-08  Ladolcevita: <BTW>You should be convinced,because i once was gay,and i knew these sexual ideologies very well..........
Dec-05-08  khursh: <Vishy but not Anand:>

1. we do not contradict each other at certain point.

2. The point is when rational part of brain analyzes long without yet finding the most rational decision, or developing to many trade-offs

3. At some point amygdala "hijacks" decision-making from frontal part of brain and we walk the talk

4. Those people who can suspend our emotions and let our frontal lobe to think longer, usually make decisions harder/slower, or sometimes even unable to do it. It is vivid re politicians vs researchers

5. The computer you talk about is the one which solved the chess, otherwise they are useless. Look at nakamura-rybka blitz/bullet games, and you will notice that computer is unable to make correct decision for a shorter time span. They lack what we call intuition

6. There is a good description of a patient case who damaged link between frontal lobe and amygdala in one of Goleman's books. The case was interesting since the patient could not make a decision on doctor appointment, despite the fact of rational analyzing or pros and cons of each day and hour. There were too many rational trade-offs ...

7. Again, at some level of chess rational thinking, or calculation skills, or knowledge of theory is enough to play good chess. So I am not arguing with the necessity or importance of front lobe's functions. But when it comes to a point, when calculations/theories/pattern memory are not enough /horizon effect in computer chess/, then its time to rely on your affective part of brain. So my argumentation was after this point and Aronian also talks about middle-game's importance leaving opening and end-game part of the game to pure theory & calculation skills.

8. I agree with you that its not only amygdala, but rather a "cooperation" between frontal lobe and affection function. More importantly I forgot to mention about neocortex /you are right, part of frontal lobe/ which is responsible in 'suspending/allowing/controlling' our emotions.

9. Well, women are better at intuition, the question is when to let it decide ?! In Aronian's logic, if women manage to control it, they can become better chess players then man. That's why Aronian's article is full of paradox, and may be yes, he was joking and touched 'sensitive' mine of gender politics

Dec-05-08  khursh: <Vishy but not Anand:> Never tough that such discussion may lead to Woman-Man-Computer triangle. LoL :)))
Dec-06-08  Vishy but not Anand: <khursh: <Vishy but not Anand:>>

<2. The point is when rational part of brain analyzes long without yet finding the most rational decision, or developing to many trade-offs>

The least with evil effect is then selected!

<3. At some point amygdala "hijacks" decision-making from frontal part of brain and we walk the talk.>

The amygdalae are considered part of the limbic system. Research shows that the amygdalae primary role is to to perform the processing and memory of emotional reactions

In complex vertebrates, including humans, the amygdalae perform primary roles in the formation and storage of memories associated with emotional events. Research indicates that, during fear conditioning, sensory stimuli reach the basolateral complexes of the amygdalae, particularly the lateral nuclei, where they form associations with memories of the stimuli. The association between stimuli and the aversive events they predict may be mediated by long-term potentiation, a lingering potential for affected synapses to react more readily.

Because the amygdala learns and stores information about emotional events, it is said to participate in emotional memory. Emotional memory is viewed as an implicit or unconscious form of memory and contrasts with explicit or declarative memory mediated by the hippocampus.

Decisions are most sound when you are fairly relax and except for emergency situation, decision when you are not emotionally stable is not as sound as when you are calm. But since it is an emegency situation, it is better to have a decision than no decision at all. That is the time that a affective may override purely cognitive rationales.

Example: Supposed, you are playing in a blitz tournament and you only need one last win to be the champ but your last game ends up in a very complex position and your time is running out. Since you are emotionally affected with this last game, you felt cramping (it's emotion) to think of the best move, but you have to move (it's a decision the situation is asking for) else you lose the game by time.

Another example: Supposed you were caught in a car accident with a third party riding with a motorcycle. He fell on the ground, bleeding, not able to move but still alive. You then have the options to either carry him to the nearest hospital to save him or call 911 immediately.

If you use your emotion instantly without evaluating the situation carefully, you will carry the guy to the hospital but if he had some broken bones you only made the situation worst for him.

But if you call 911, (though it will take a little more time than you carry him yourself) they are expert with this kind of situation and for sure will have a better result rather than when you just simply use your emotion to hijack your decision.

<4. Those people who can suspend our emotions and let our frontal lobe to think longer, usually make decisions harder/slower, or sometimes even unable to do it. It is vivid re politicians vs researchers>

There is an inaccuracy in your remarks. Emotions are also part of frontal lobe.

In ideal life, you must use all your frontal lobe functions in making a sound decision. You cannot just turn-off the emotion unless you are cyborg.

Dec-06-08  Vishy but not Anand: <5. The computer you talk about is the one which solved the chess, otherwise they are useless. Look at nakamura-rybka blitz/bullet games, and you will notice that computer is unable to make correct decision for a shorter time span. They lack what we call intuition>

There is again inaccuracy in your remarks.

Chess programs though very powerful in calculation and with millions of games stored in its database is not 100% fool proof. It can still encounter new moves that will make them search for its database and still not find the counter move in a short period of time like in a bullet game. It will then make an unsound move. I am sure a lot of chessplayers knows this trick.

Nakamura is absolutely great in bullet and blitz but playing bullet or blitz games are not just purely using intuition, it also requires a lot of home preparation (not necessarily before you play blitz but through-out their career), familiarization and deliberately creating new moves (not necessarily very sound moves but sufficient to consume the opponents precious time that will make its opponent to make an even worse moves (due to time constraints) and win. This approach is both applicable against humans and chess programs.

<6. There is a good description of a patient case who damaged link between frontal lobe and amygdala in one of Goleman's books. The case was interesting since the patient could not make a decision on doctor appointment, despite the fact of rational analyzing or pros and cons of each day and hour. There were too many rational trade-offs ...>

There is a critical review of Daniel Golesman Book, how he misled the public. Don't be too focus on him, you might be misled too. Here is the link...

http://eqi.org/gole.htm

<7. Again, at some level of chess rational thinking, or calculation skills, or knowledge of theory is enough to play good chess. So I am not arguing with the necessity or importance of front lobe's functions. But when it comes to a point, when calculations/theories/pattern memory are not enough /horizon effect in computer chess/, then its time to rely on your affective part of brain. So my argumentation was after this point and Aronian also talks about middle-game's importance leaving opening and end-game part of the game to pure theory & calculation skills.>

I was a very intuitive chessplayer before and played in almost blitz or rapid tempo even in a classical long game chess. But I'd realized that this is not the way to play classical chess. Some games I lose were clear winning but when I get bored and just made my move based on my intuition, I'd realized that I just punished myself and if I continue playing like those, I'd better quit. So I quit!!

When I became more matured but already stopped playing, my advise to the new generations are as long as you have sufficient time, use it wisely. Don't let the intuition or emotion of seem to be a nice outcome takeover your decision without re-evaluating it, unless you really don't have enough time, then you may rely on it. Its better to have a fighting decision than lose in time.

Chess programs are getting better every year, important games are added for each release and new ideas are programmed for how to beat the possible current best player in the world. Except emotions, the rests can be programmed now, so with sufficient time the program can calculate and find the best moves that makes them almost unbeatable.

<8. I agree with you that its not only amygdala, but rather a "cooperation" between frontal lobe and affection function. More importantly I forgot to mention about neocortex /you are right, part of frontal lobe/ which is responsible in 'suspending/allowing/controlling' our emotions.>

Good we have agreed :)

<9. Well, women are better at intuition, the question is when to let it decide ?! In Aronian's logic, if women manage to control it, they can become better chess players then man. That's why Aronian's article is full of paradox, and may be yes, he was joking and touched 'sensitive' mine of gender politics>

I have a very simple way of thinking, if somebody is talking something sensible or rubbish.

If he has a proof or atleast proved it by himself, I will consider that he might have a basis or point at the current situation. Unfortunately, he never beat the highest rated woman at her peak and even worse, he got -2 score out from their 4 games. So regrets Aronian...

Dec-06-08  Vishy but not Anand: < khursh: <Vishy but not Anand:> Never tough that such discussion may lead to Woman-Man-Computer triangle. LoL :))) >

I don't think there will be a Man-Woman-Computer Triangle. Computer is out but there will always be a chess program world champion that plays against computers and exhibition matches but I don't see yet that any human will put his World Chess Crown title against Chess program. Not in my lifetime I guess.

Dec-07-08  Davolni: WOW!!!!

~some people really take CG.COM seriously!!!~

Dec-07-08  Ladolcevita: <Davolni>(in case that you are including me...) Yep,i sometimes made serious speeches,but it doesnt necessarily mean i'm serious about the topic,because i might also be just practising my English seriously....
Dec-07-08  Davolni: <Ladolcevita>

no man, you are cool ;)

your posts are <nothing> compared with <Vishy but not Anand's> posts....

I can only envy people like him for the free time they got for such topics and conversations.

But on the other hand I appreciate every minute of my life a lot more then just spending here in CG...

Dec-07-08  Vishy but not Anand: < Davolni: <Ladolcevita>

no man, you are cool ;)

your posts are <nothing> compared with <Vishy but not Anand's> posts....

I can only envy people like him for the free time they got for such topics and conversations.

But on the other hand I appreciate every minute of my life a lot more then just spending here in CG...>

I also enjoyed every minute of my life with my profession.

I also spent sometime in CG for fun but made sure that I said something with sense rather than a kind of 1 cent comment that others do and still feel they are cool like you, LOL!

Dec-07-08  GreenArrow: Aronian lost due to his blunder 28...Qc4.
Levon Aronian seems to be a laid back and humorous person; it is quite clear that his 'woman cant play chess' remarks should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Dec-07-08  Davolni: <vishy but not anand> I guess you are hurt..... did i hurt your feelings or something??

<1 cent comment.....> yeah, really....

it is a <senseless 1 cent comment>...

am I cool? HELL NO!!!

do I wanna be cool? HELL NO!!!

do I need to be cool? HELL NO!!!

but you are!!!

so take it easy...

Dec-08-08  Granny O Doul: After 29...Qd3 30 Rc8+ Ne8, White does not take the knight but plays 31.Bc2 anyway. Maybe that is what Aronian missed earlier.

Dec-08-08  Vishy but not Anand: < Granny O Doul: After 29...Qd3 30 Rc8+ Ne8, White does not take the knight but plays 31.Bc2 anyway. Maybe that is what Aronian missed earlier >

It is still a quality advantage. After 30. .... Ne8 31. Bc2 and White cannot protect the Knight so his queen is force to take the Black light Bishop, else it is mate.

Sep-21-09  TheMacMan: judit owns aronian
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