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Sep-03-03
 | | The Long Diagonal: This idea was known at least as early as in 1862 when it occurred in the game Dubois-Steinitz. Dubois played a better move 9. h4 instead of 9. Nxg5, and Réti comments In his book "Meisters des Schachbretts" (Masters of the Chess Board): "An admirable combination would have followed after the move 9. Nxg5: 9. ... h4!, 10. Rxf7 hxg3, 11. Rxd8 Bg4, 12. Qd2 Nd4, 13. Nc3 Nf3+, 14. gxf3 Bxf3, and white will be mated soon." My guess is that Kiltti had studied this game by Steinitz and knew already beforehand what was going on. Of course, it's also possible that he made this game "himself" and calculated everything before he played 8. ... h5!!. Pedroska: 11. Nxh8 really looks better to me. Still, I doubt that Crafty's analysis beginning with 11. ... Qe7 and ending with is perhaps not complete because the initiative of black looks quite dangerous. This might be one of those positions that computers don't understand as well as humans... but then again, I'm just an average club player. Any stronger players than me who have an opinion about the position after 11. Nxh8? |
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| Sep-11-03 | | pedroska: <everyone> Yeah ... I never play the Giouco as white so I got dragged by the Q sac. It appears to be pretty standard knowledge that I did not have. Anyway I am now convinced that 9. Nxg5 is no good. That is ... the problem started much earlier for white (all the previous discussions are about positions that white should have avoided in the first place). There seems to be nothing good that can come out of this move. |
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| Mar-30-04 | | seoulmama: This game must be inspired by the Art of Attack. There is a similar game there. Same variant. |
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| Mar-16-05 | | trosky: white bast move could be 13.h3 Ne2 14.Qe2 Be2 15.Ne6 but black must be better after Bf1!?,another move is 13.Nf7 but Rh214.Ng5 Ke7 15.Qe3 Rah8 is a win |
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| Mar-16-05 | | trosky: I also want to submit an interesting game with 11.Nh8:Bg412.Qd2 Nd4 13.hg3 Kd7 14.Ng6 Qe8 15.Qg5 Ne2 16.Kh1 Qg6 17.Qh4 Rh8 18.Qh8 Nh7(0-1)Martinsen-Jansen.1937 |
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| Apr-02-05 | | fgh: Quite practical, but losing :) Nice game. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | Eatman: Curses! I could have had the same game in one of my blitz games (as black) last week, should have remembered this trap. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | Willem Wallekers: White's mistake was 6.Bg6, provoking the pawn storm. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | Marius: Dubois vs Steinitz, 1862 |
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| Apr-02-05 | | maxxowar: crafty: 13 Ne6 Ne2+ 14 Qxe2 Bx2 +2.65 |
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| Apr-02-05 | | kevin86: White's sin was his greed-and as it is written:the wages of sin is death. So it was,for the white king. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | Seraph88: Instead of 4.d3 couldnt white have gone for the fried liver attack with 4.Ng5. This attack has higher expectations for white. When was black's sac ever solid. I find it very amazing how black thought through the in-between moves of white. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | Jaymthegenius: Like I said, Bg5 is a garbage move, note how after 6...h6 7.Bh4,g4 8.Bg3 black simply gains space, and what white gets out of it is a misplaced dark-squared bishop, I would play 6.Be3,Bxe3 7.fxe3 to give the rook an open f-file and to strengthen the e4 and f4 squares with the extra pawn, and also to completly nullify the possibility of a bishop of opposite color ending. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | ongyj: I am new to this idea, and seek knowledge from the users here:)
After 7...g5 is it possible for White to play 8.Nxg5 and go for complications? Thanks for the enlightenment! :) |
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| Apr-02-05 | | Jaymthegenius: in some cases the knight sacrifice would be sound, but in this game after 8.Nxg5,hxg5 9.Bxg5,Rg8 white is simply down a knight, and white doesnt have an attack, and black will castle queenside, double rooks on the g-file, and put tremendouse pressure on g2. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | ongyj: After 8.Nxg5 hxg5 9.Bxg5 Rg8 I will play 10.h4 maintaining the pin. |
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| Apr-02-05 | | pastpawn: I played this line in a tournament game once in 1984. My opponent opted for 13 hxg3 instead, and resigned after 13 ... ♘f3+ 14 gxf3 ♗xf3. I felt kind of bad at the time: My opponent looked to be about 12 years old, and his eyes got wider and wider as he saw he was allowed Nxf7 and Nxd8. |
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| Apr-03-05 | | Jaymthegenius: <Ongyj>:
You say "I want to learn opening as I am new to chess without having to memorize" The book "chess advantage in black and white" Seems to be very promising. Also, May I recommend the Reti System as white, and the Sicilian Bastrikov as black. Also as black the kings indian defense vs. the queenpawn, and kings english (1.c4,e5) would be good to learn, and fighting 1.Nf3 you can respond symmetrically, or play 1...d5 or c5. (avoid 1...Nc6, as this will transpose into the Chigorin or knights Tango, and I have a crushing score vs. 1.Nf3,Nc6 as white) |
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| Apr-08-05 | | ongyj: <Jaymthegenious> Thanks for the replies. I'm stunned and perhaps a little flattered to know that someone actually even bothers to read chessgames.com's user bios:) Yes I'll consider what you proposed for me, and in fact I've been on openings exploration for a couple of years already. Yet there's still so much unexplored for me... Hope I can learn as much as I can. Best of luck to all users too! |
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| Apr-08-05 | | fenno: The word 'kiltti' in Finnish (those players are Finns) means 'nice' or 'kind'. - It must have been horrible for white player to realize that the opponent is mean, despite his name. :) |
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Jun-29-11
 | | GrahamClayton: <Calli>This is an ancient opening trap. I first saw it in Reinfeld's 1000 best short games, I think. Can't recall the players. Here, Black just knew the line, so don't give him much credit. <Calli>,
The chess column in the Brisbane Courier, dated 23 February 1924, gives this game as also being played by CS Ashley and AH Tollit in a British Correspondence Chess Association tournament. Surely Ashley would have had an openings book showing this trap? |
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Jan-02-12
 | | FSR: Much better is 14.Qxe2. See this comment from 2004:
<Shadout Mapes: Copy/Pasted from Dubois vs Steinitz, 1862 : Shadout Mapes: I've been looking over this variation, how about 13.h3? 13.h3 Ne2+ 14.Qxe2 Bxe2 15.Ne6 Bb6 16.Nc3 Bxf1 17.Kxf1 gxf2 and the position looks equal. Still rather unclear though, any thoughts on this? Cyphelium: <Shadout Mapes> I think the final position of your variation looks slightly favourable for black. After all, he is an exchange up.Still, white has two pawns for the exchange and it does looks much better than what happened in the game. So I've tried another way. After 13. h3 Ne2+ 14. Qxe2 Bxe2 15. Ne6, I suggest 15.- Bxf1!?. A/ 16. Nxc7+ Kd8 17. Nxa8 does not seem to be good in view of 17.- Be2 when white is in great trouble; for example 18. Nc3 Bxf2+ 19. Kh1 Bf3! (threat Rxh3 mate) 20. gxf3 Rxh3+ 21. Kg2 Rh2+ 22. Kf1 Rh1+ 23. Ke2/g2 Rxa1 and the g-pawn will queen or cause further material losses. Instead 18. Nd2 covers f3, but 18.- Bxf2+ 19. Kh1 Ng4 looks very tricky. The threat is simply 20.- Bf2 moves somewhere followed by 21.- Nf2+. 20. Nf1 fails to 20.- Rxh3+ 21. gxh3 Bf3 mate. 20. Rf1 Be3! is not very nice either. B/ Better is 16. Nxc5 dxc5 17. Kxf1 Rf8 when white still has those two pawns for the exchange, though it looks easier for black to convert this to a win than in your variation. (No annoying knight on e6).> Of course, two pawns is normally at least sufficient compensation for an exchange. Does Black have any way to get an advantage after 14.Qxe2? |
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| Jan-02-12 | | King Death: <FSR> One idea <Cyphelium> doesn't mention is 15...Bf1 16.Kf1. White doesn't need to grab material, he needs to get his king safe and untangle his other pieces. Black can play 16...gf 17.Nc5 dc but I think this is no more than equal. If White gets developed, his kingside pawns could mean big trouble. Maybe a better try for an edge is instead 15...Bb6 16.Nc3 Bf1 17.Kf1 gf, but after 18.Na4 and Nb6+ this isn't clear. |
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| Jun-09-12 | | vinidivici: After white 11. Nxd8....why did black win after lost his queen? Did white have done a terrible blunder along the way? or the queen sacrifice strong? |
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| Jun-09-12 | | vinidivici: is it? |
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Kibitzing
sac: 10...hxg3